Corporate Amen: Practical Guidelines for the Use of

Introduction and Review of Pastor Carlson's Study on 'Amen'

0:03 The following message was delivered on Sunday morning, July 28, 2002, in the Adult Sunday School class at the Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey. Now, we do welcome those who are visiting with us and looking out. I see some faces that would not normally be here in this class, some faces that we had known before. I was going to say old faces, but that makes a judgment about your age.

0:32 There are some familiar faces and others not so familiar. And especially for you who are visiting, let me just say a word about where we have been in this class. Pastor Michael J. has just completed a 15-week study in the Book of Ruth, and one of the sisters spoke to me and said that she felt last Sunday in that last study as though she had lost a good friend, and I think many of us feel the same way.

0:59 And in the coming days, particularly beginning on... On August 11, Pastor Carlson will begin leading us in a study using as the basis of that study Dr. Donald Carlson's book, A Call to Spiritual Reformation, subtitled, A Study in the Prayers of the Apostle Paul. I don't know why the main title is what it is, because it really is a very helpful exposition of the prayers of the Apostle Paul as recorded in the New Testament epistles. I can remember when I first...

1:32 When I first read the book about four years ago, I was so moved by it that I tracked down Dr. Carlson's number where he teaches out at Trinity Divinity School in Illinois to just speak to him and express to him my deep gratitude and my sense of indebtedness for his labors. The book was of such help to me. And this book will be made available at a real bargain price.

1:57 I'm sticking my neck out here. I haven't spoken yet to Mr. Davies. He's not here.

2:03 But I think we can exert a little pressure to dicker with him and get a very good, reasonable price for you, the members of the church, that you might have this book in hand to read it, to study it, and to be prepared week by week for the lessons that will be taught based upon that book and upon the scriptures that it expounds. So today, and God willing, next Lord's Day, I will be teaching the adult class, addressing some very practical pastoral concerns. Many of you will remember that a few weeks ago, June 23rd to be precise, Pastor Carlson led you in a study on the use of the Amen in the corporate worship of God. And that study precipitated some questions from some of you, which I anticipated there would be since it was just one study, and he really didn't have time to address some of the practical implications of the teaching that was given. And as I reflected upon how I might use this hour, I felt it would be helpful to fulfill the promise that I gave to some of you that in due course we would address your practical questions about the implementation of some of the biblical material that was set before you. And so what I propose to do this morning is, first of all,

3:27 give a brief review of the main issues addressed in the class by Pastor Carlson. And for this reason, I've seen to it that you have a copy of the notes that he used in teaching that class. And I have had these printed up with his knowledge and permission. And I have a couple of reasons in having this put in your hand, not only that I might make brief reference to the material in it, but that I hope a number of you, as the heads of families, will perhaps take two or three of your family worship times to instruct me.

4:01 To instruct your families concerning these matters. And this material will be helpful, I trust, in enabling you to take the scriptures and to instruct the consciences of your children and young people with respect to this matter of the place of the amen in the corporate worship of God. And having given that brief review, I then want to spend the bulk of the time giving some practical guidelines and counsel. It was in this...

4:31 It was in this area that some of you had questions and it is in that area that I want to concentrate the bulk of my time with you and then hopefully some time will be left for questions and I hope I'll be able to give some answers. If I don't have the answers, I hope I'll have the grace of honesty to tell you I simply don't know. All right, with the sheet in front of you that has been distributed, you will notice that Pastor Carlson began with instruction regarding the significance of the term amen. And by a word study and citing specific text of scripture and doing some linguistic background, he caused us to see that the word amen basically is a word of affirmation. It means so be it, let it be. In contemporary parlance, it would be like right on. As I sat at my desk saying, Lord, what's a contemporary equivalent of the amen?

5:31 I think the closest we have is right on. And that's the significance of amen. And like the word hallelujah, it comes to us from the Hebrew. The Greek is a transliteration of the Hebrew word.

5:46 You take the Hebrew sounds and you give a Greek equivalent and then you take the Greek equivalent and give an English equivalent and we have amen, amen, amen. Same with hallelujah. So no matter where you go in the world, among the people of God, amen and hallelujah are two words you're quite confident they will know. Now they may pronounce it a little bit differently.

6:10 Our Hispanic friends, amen.

6:13 It's like a long A. But basically, amen, amen, hallelujah are universal words because they have been transliterated from the Hebrew and the Greek into English, Hebrew and Greek into whatever is the target language. Amen. Amen.

6:30 Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

6:31 Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

6:31 Amen. The basic concept of the word is Soviet, let it be. And then Pastor Carlson went on from this instruction concerning the significance of the term amen on page two of your notes, the backside of the first page. He underscored that in the usage that we find in the scriptures and its significance, certain things that it is not.

6:58 It is not just a traditional way. It is not just a way for formal churches to end their hymns. It's not something invented by some preachers for immediate personal gratification. It's not something invented by a wide-eyed charismatic to open the door for a religious free-for-all.

7:15 It is a word introduced by God himself in the language of the people of God, not merely to describe the state of their heart, but for them to use to express their affirmation, confirmation, wholehearted, shared desire. It is to be the outward verbal expression of inward spiritual realities. And then he gives under Roman numeral two, he called it motivation based on the biblical usage of the term, and it is really guidelines as we consider the biblical use of the term. And I'll not go over that material.

7:55 I think it is straightforward. It is clear. And I found it very helpful. To have that review in his lesson and then Roman numeral three on page three, the practical directions of Pastor Carlson ran out of time and was not able to give these as he had hoped he would be able to.

8:14 And I'm not going to repeat his. I have my own organizing principle, but those are very, very helpful guidelines that I trust you will find helpful as you think through this matter and its implications for you personally. And then, as you seek to, to instruct your own families. So that's the basic review of the matters that were set before us.

Activities in Public Worship for Predictable, Intelligent, Hearty Corporate Amen

8:38 Now, moving from the biblical material with respect to the significance of the term, its various usages in the scriptures. I want to give you some practical guidelines with respect to the use of the amen, both in corporate public worship and in a broader sense, in corporate, congregational life in certain circumstances. Roman numeral one for me under the practical guidelines is this. The activities in public worship when the predictable, intelligent, hearty corporate amen is both appropriate and desirable. What are the activities in public worship? When the predictable intelligent, not just something we formally do mindlessly, it's predictable. You know, when it's going to be uttered, hopefully it will be uttered with present intelligent, conceptual reality.

9:49 When an amen is said by the congregation, it will not be a mindless wrote a man, but an expressive expression of present, intelligent, affirmation of something that has gone on in the public worship. What are those activities in public worship? Then when a predictable, intelligent, hearty, not laid back, but hearty, whole sold voluminous one that can be heard. A hearty corporate amen is both appropriate and desirable.

10:28 Now notice I didn't say mandated. I couldn't go so far as to say it's mandated. I'm not binding anyone's conscience with something that is equal to the law of God. It is both appropriate and desirable, not mandated.

10:48 No one needs fear that he's going to be a subject to formal admonition in church discipline. If he doesn't say the amen in these corporate settings, where ordinarily, it is predictable and is both appropriate and desirable. Now do you see why I work with words? If I could show you my sheets here, you see all kinds of white outs.

11:13 I go over the headings and none of that doesn't say it right. Another word. And out comes the synonym finder. Out comes the dictionary.

11:21 Thoughts are enfleshed, embodied in words, and they're either accurate expressions or inaccurate. So I'm asserting here today, in this practical council, that there are activities in public worship when the predictable, intelligent, hearty, corporate amen is both appropriate and desirable. And I want to identify two such places in public worship. Number one, at the conclusion of public corporate prayers.

11:53 At the conclusion of corporate public prayers. And of course, the key text and reference was made to this several weeks ago. And of course, the key text and reference was made to this several weeks ago. And of course, the key text and reference was made to this several weeks ago.

12:02 Is first Corinthians chapter 14. First Corinthians chapter 14. When Paul is seeking to demonstrate why untranslated tongues are forbidden in the corporate worship of the church at Corinth, it's interesting of the many reasons he could give. This is the one that he gives.

12:24 First Corinthians 14 and verse 16. Else, if you bless with the Spirit, and in the context, blessing with the Spirit would be someone giving praise to God in this language that is not known by the rank and file of the people present. If you bless with the Spirit, how shall he that fills the place of the unlearned say the amen at the giving of your thanks, seeing he does not know what you are saying? There are all kinds of assumptions in this text.

12:59 The first is that, this was a common practice in the assembly at Corinth. That when someone led in prayers of thanksgiving, there would be a corporate Amen. Furthermore, it is assumed that people understood that their Amen was not a religious form, but was to be an expression of an intelligent, present, hearty assent of what they heard and what registered in their brain and in their hearts. And that the, person in whom it did not register because it came in a linguistic form that he didn't understand would refrain from his amen. So if someone were in the assembly when the corporate amen was uttered and someone did not utter it, you had a right to assume he didn't utter it because he didn't understand the giving of the thanks. And in a number of the commentators, it is very clear that this was a practice that had emerged in the life of Israel, became embodied in the synagogues throughout the Roman Empire, and was one of a number of practices that was carried over into the form and rituals of the New Testament church. And some of the early church fathers make

14:16 definite reference to the corporate public amen at the giving of thanks. And so it is proper in our life together as a church when someone has offered prayer and praise on behalf of the congregation that there should be what I am calling a predictable, intelligent, hearty, corporate amen. Such an amen is both appropriate and desirable. And then secondly, this is also true at the conclusion of public, corporate psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Colossians 3 and verse 17 directs us that we are to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts unto God. Colossians 3, 16, I think I said 17. And there are some beautiful examples, of how such prayers, such expressions of hymns and spiritual songs addressed to God are followed by the corporate amen, particularly in the book of the Revelation. And I want you to turn with me now

15:39 to several passages in the book of the Revelation where this is beautifully illustrated. It marks the praise of heaven, and surely if we are being fitted and prepared for the praise of heaven, we ought to engage in it now. In a way that mirrors the praise that we shall engage in in the age to come. Revelation chapter 5 verses 13 and 14.

16:05 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, unto him that sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever. And the four living creatures, the four living creatures, the four living creatures, the four living creatures, the four living creatures, whatever they were, could not withhold the affirmation of the praise that they have heard given to God, and they enter in with their united amen. Chapter 7 verses 11 and verse 12. And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders, and the four living creatures, and they fell down. And they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen. Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.

17:08 So they precede their praise with an amen, and they follow it with an amen. What we're about to express, we believe. It is our intelligent, present perspective and conviction. Amen.

17:22 Amen. Blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving. And what we have just expressed, we now affirm again. This is the wholehearted perspective of our hearts.

17:33 Amen. Chapter 19. You have a similar description. After the judgment of God upon the great harlot, Babylon, we read in Revelation 19, After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah!

17:50 Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. For true and righteous are his judgments. He has judged the great harlot. Her that corrupted the earth with her fornication has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

18:04 And the second time they say, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God that sits on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah!

18:19 And a voice came forth from the throne, etc. So, when God, as it were, pulls back the veil and lets us see and hear the praise of heaven, the Amen is present in that praise at the conclusion of hymns and spiritual songs of praise and adoration to our God. You find that in Nehemiah chapter 8, which is one of the clearest Old Testament examples of this. In Nehemiah 8, verses 5 and 6.

18:58 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people. For he was above all the people. And when he opened it, all the people stood up. And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God.

19:11 And all the people answered, Amen! Amen! With the lifting up of their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

19:25 The whole congregation enters in to the worship offered. On their behalf. On their behalf by Ezra. And they say, Amen and Amen.

19:35 And then it's interesting. We have the so-called five books of the Psalter. The book of Psalms is divided into book 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And at the end of the first four books, you have the repetition of this language of Amen.

19:51 As though the Spirit of God has said to us, where His praise is set forth in the Psalter, we are to affirm that praise with our Amen unto God. I read just one of them because it's the same structure in all of them. Psalm 41 and verse 13. Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, from everlasting and to everlasting.

20:17 Amen and Amen. So be it. God is to be blessed. God is to be praised.

20:26 And then we find it, as Pastor Carlson pointed out, at the end of doxologies throughout the epistles. Romans 11, 36. But one specimen. For of Him and through Him and unto Him are all things, to whom be glory forever and ever.

20:39 Amen. And it's as though the Apostle's heart bursts. And surely he expects those in the city of Rome who are gathered in the various house churches when they hear that epistle read, as their hearts are taken up with that fresh vision of the glory and wonder and the mystery of the waves of our solitude of the sovereign God that they likewise would affirm their commitment to the praise, these doxological passages with their hearty and intelligent Amen. So then, there are activities in corporate worship in which the Amen is both predictable, appropriate, and desirable.

21:21 At the end of our public prayers and at the end of our psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. And may I say again, without riding a hobby, you'll not hear about this again from me, hopefully for a long time.

21:39 I cannot understand how people, no matter what their temperamental and cultural background may be, when they are at a ball game, when they are at a theater, when they are in some other situation where what they have seen and heard is such that they want to make known their approval that they don't have cultural and temperamental hang-ups. The most important thing is that they don't have cultural and temperamental hang-ups. The most important thing is that they don't have cultural and temperamental hang-ups. The most reserved people become the most enthusiastic people.

22:05 Why in the world is it in the house of God we hide behind our cultural reserve and our temperamental reserve?

22:12 I don't understand it. My background is Swedish and Scottish. All right? The Swedes are known for being blockheads.

22:23 That was the nickname I had as a Swedish kid on the block. I was the blockhead. And being temperamentally reserved. The Scottish, the same way.

22:32 But when God saved me, I became persuaded that the enthusiasm I showed on the football field and the enthusiasm I showed on the baseball field, why was God worthy of anything less? Free on my Scottish and Swedish temperament, God's going to get the enthusiastic engagement of this man in his worship. And may I urge you to consider whether or not that simply is not a cop-out. Well, I'm not used to doing it.

23:02 Well, there's a lot of things you're doing, as a Christian, you weren't used to doing when you became a Christian. Well, that's not my temperament. Well, fine. I hope there's a lot of areas where God's refining your temperament.

Activities in Corporate Congregational Life for Occasional Corporate Amen

23:13 Restraining it in other areas, liberating it. I hope God's refining all of us and shaping our temperament by the Word of God. Well, then I move, secondly, to the activities in corporate congregational life. This is not worship now.

23:27 The activities in corporate congregational life where the occasional, not predictable, see, chosen the word carefully, where the occasional corporate amen is both appropriate and desirable. And here I want to suggest three places in our congregational life, not corporate worship, where the occasional, not predictable, not regular, but the occasional corporate amen is both appropriate and desirable. Number one, when the congregation is called upon formally to affirm, a recommendation of its appointed leaders. When the congregation is called upon to formally affirm a recommendation of the appointed leaders. For example, in our life together, our Constitution requires that in the reception of members that there not only be a membership interview with the elders and a recommendation to the congregation that such and such a person be received and a period of time for you to consider that, but at the Lord's table, generally at the Lord's table, at one of our stated meetings, the person to be received is asked several questions and then you, the congregation, are asked to affirm your desire to open your heart to this brother or sister and to receive this one into the life of the church.

24:56 In that situation, you are asked to affirm, to confirm your persuasion that this individual, ought indeed to be received and you are then asked to do this. And surely, if you have no reason to believe that this person is not a brother or sister beloved and committed to the life and ministry of the church, there ought to be no reservation. You are asked, do you, the Lord's people, cheerfully receive John Jones into the membership of this assembly to utter a corporate, hearty, unashamed, Amen. We do.

25:32 So be it. With the hand, with the hand of one of the elders goes our heart and our commitment. And that's part of the more generic biblical principle, let all things be done decently and in order. But then secondly, there's another situation where the occasional corporate Amen is both appropriate and desirable in our congregational life when the congregation, I'm sorry, I left something out here, not only in the reception of members but in the extending of corporate, forgiveness.

26:05 From time to time, one of the members of the church or someone who has left the church requests forgiveness of the congregation for a wrong that was committed against the whole congregation. Some of you have been present when I have led such meetings and I have said, now so and so has asked forgiveness for this or that sin. Do you, the Lord's people, cheerfully, freely, extend that forgiveness, if so, signify by a hearty Amen. And you are asked by your corporate Amen to affirm that you are extending that forgiveness.

26:40 And that meets the principle of 2 Corinthians 2, 6-8 where Paul speaks to the Corinthian church that as they acted corporately in the discipline of a brother, they would now corporately confirm their love and their reception of this brother back into the life and fellowship of the assembly. So there are situations where the congregation is called upon formally to affirm a recommendation of its appointed leader. Secondly, when the congregation is called upon occasionally, informally, to affirm its commitment to a crucial issue articulated in the public ministry of the Word. There may be times when those of us who are teaching or preaching will address a matter that is of crucial importance to us as a congregation. For example, if we were in the midst of dealing with some incipient division within the life of the church and we were reading through a passage such as Philippians chapter 1 where Paul speaks to the Philippians and says, this is my desire for you, the Philippians, verse 27, that with one heart and with one mind you would strive together for the faith of the gospel. And if the one teaching or preaching would say, my brothers and sisters, are you committed that with one heart and one mind you will strive together for the faith of the gospel? That's an informal affirmation is asked of you, the Lord's people.

28:09 Now, you don't do that every other sentence, every week in every exposition, then it becomes meaningless. But there are crucial times when such an affirmation is appropriate and it is asked of you. I'm not saying it is mandated, but certainly it is both appropriate and desirable. And then another situation in our congregational life, not our church, our worship is this.

28:34 When the congregation senses the need to spontaneously affirm its commitment to a crucial issue articulated in the ministry of the word. It may not be the one leading who asks for the affirmation, but there's a growing sense among the people of God that they must make such an affirmation. You have an example of that in Nehemiah chapter 8, verses 5 and 6. This is one of those examples of that affirmation.

29:03 We already looked at this passage. We look at it again. There doesn't seem to be any indication that Nehemiah formally calls for the congregation saying, now if you are committed to the things that I have expressed, they just spontaneously break out, verse 6, and all the people answered, Amen, Amen. There was this spontaneous response to this expression of praise unto God.

29:33 There is another situation where Nehemiah is calling for reformation in the matter of making some issues right. In Ezra or Nehemiah, I don't have the specific passage, and the people of God, right in the midst of his calling upon them to deal biblically with this sin of usury, they affirm with their Amen that they are committed to do what the word of God was articulating for them. And there are times, and we ought to have a climate where we have that liberty, where we sense as a congregation that the Spirit of God is saying something very, very vital to us as a people, and that there ought to be this climate in which there can be a spontaneous corporate Amen affirming that indeed we are determined to be obedient in that area of biblical duty. But then I move thirdly to what I'm calling the activities in corporate worship. We're back now to worship. When a spontaneous, individual, or segmental Amen may be desirable and appropriate.

Activities in Corporate Worship for Spontaneous, Individual, or Segmental Amen

30:39 Activities in corporate worship when a spontaneous, individual, or segmental Amen. What do I mean by segmental? It's the only word I could come up with. When there is a limited group within the congregation among whom a spontaneous Amen may be both desirable, appropriate, and desirable.

31:00 Let me identify two such situations. In corporate prayer, when there is a petition, a confession, and expression of praise of such immediate and overwhelming personal relevance that one's spirit would be inwardly ruptured to remain in total silence. There are such situations. Someone is leading in prayer, in the prayer meeting, on the Lord's Day.

31:30 And in that prayer, there are expressions of praise, there are confessions, there are petitions of such overwhelming personal relevance that one's spirit would be inwardly ruptured if one did not give vent in an individual, personal Amen. Now what do I mean about one's spirit would be ruptured? Well, I'm trying to express what is described by Elihu in Job chapter 32. Job chapter 32.

32:03 Remember, Job is in bad straits and his so-called friends have been giving their counsel. And the younger man in the presence of the older sages has been listening. And the more he listens, the more he's convinced these characters don't have the answer to Job's situation. And so he begins to speak.

32:26 And notice what he says in verses 19 and 20 of Job 32. This man, Elihu, begins to speak. Behold, my breast is as wine which has no vent. Like new wineskins, it is ready to burst.

32:47 I will speak that I may be refreshed. I will open my lips and answer. He didn't want to have an internal spiritual aneurysm. You know what an aneurysm is when a blood vessel bursts.

33:01 And he says, that's the way I was. I just can't be silent anymore. I'm going to bust in the inside. And I have to speak.

33:11 Now I hope there are times when in corporate prayer someone's praise, someone's confession, someone's petition is of such crucial, pressing, personal relevance that you feel, if I don't say amen, I can't wait for the rest of the congregation in this matter. And you speak your amen. And I trust we have a climate in which we can speak your amen. In which a person who does that is not immediately frozen out with nasty looks.

33:45 The scripture says we are not to quench the spirit. And surely if the spirit of God is present ministering to individuals, there will be such times among us. Am I sounding like a wild-eyed mystic? Do you know what I'm talking about?

34:00 You know what those times when you feel you're going to have an aneurysm of the heart if you don't say an amen?

34:08 Am I the only nut here? Come on. Anybody else ever feel that way? Amen!

34:14 Thank you, my brother. I got a witness. All right. Then there's a second situation.

34:21 In the corporate reception of the word, when there is a truth preached or a challenge given that has unusual personal relevance, that one's spirit would be inwardly ruptured if an amen were not uttered. There are times in preaching when the Lord Jesus, our great prophet, comes to us in such a personal way that we know that if God is not saying anything to anyone else, He's speaking to us. And that sense of the Lord speaking to us is such that there's this internal pressure and we desire to give vent to our sense. So be it, Lord.

35:05 You've spoken. You've drawn near. Lord, so be it. And that is our way of affirming before God that indeed the Lord has spoken.

35:16 So then, there are times in the corporate worship when a spontaneous individual or sometimes segmental, there may be three or four people to whom that particular petition or expression of praise or that particular truth or application and there will be three or four people all at once giving vent with their amen. I trust we have a climate in which that is not unusual, in which that is not looked upon as fanaticism, in which that is not looked upon as a contradiction of the biblical injunction let all things be done decently and in order. Now then, thirdly, let me give some qualifying principles which will act as a fence around the use and possible abuse of the amen in the corporate congregational worship and ministry. What are some biblical principles that will act like a fence? Well, here are several. Number one, 1 Corinthians 13, 5 says, Love does not behave itself unseemly.

Qualifying Principles for the Use and Avoidance of Abuse of the Amen

36:19 Love knows how to behave in a way that is not unbecoming. Now, there are times when we've had people come into the church who obviously came out of a context where you said an amen after every sentence of the preacher and they were just carrying on and it was obvious that wasn't the climate here and they were determined to let us know well, that's the climate in the church I come from and they ran roughshod over the sensibility and the climate here. Love doesn't do that. Love does not behave itself unseemly.

36:51 Love does not behave itself in an unbecoming way. And if we are motivated by love in our corporate worship and in our corporate congregational life we will not make a nuisance of ourselves and we'll know what it is to make a nuisance of ourselves and what it is not to make a nuisance of ourselves without having a manual 14 pages long with fine print on all the details of how we should and should not express the amen in the public worship and life of the church. Secondly, humility does not attract attention to itself. Ephesians 4 1 and 2 The apostle says I beseech you in the light of your calling to walk worthy of the calling wherewith you were called with all lowliness of mind in meekness in meekness preferring one another giving diligence to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. And if we are more and more clothed with humility we will avoid anything that unnecessarily attracts attention to ourselves. Thirdly, sensitivity to our brethren will make us anxious not to distract or grieve our brethren. The scripture says in nothing giving offense.

38:11 Again, the scripture says love works no ill to its neighbor. Sensitivity to our brethren. We don't need a bunch of specific detailed rules. These are graces when cultivated that act as a fence to keep us from excesses.

38:28 And fourthly, a persuasion of the legitimacy and desirability of joining in appropriate corporate amens will help us to overcome our temporary and cultural reluctance. I trust we'll have a context in which anyone's silence will be interpreted as it was in Corinth. They don't know what's going on here.

38:53 What is... What did I do?

38:59 Fourth point. I'm sorry, Leslie. A persuasion of the legitimacy and desirability of joining in the corporate amens will help us to overcome our temperamental and our cultural reluctance. Now, for example, if there's a situation in which one of us who is preaching has addressed a very critical issue and we say, brethren, are you committed to this?

39:27 And you sit there silent. What do you think I have a right to think standing up here? Well, what's wrong with Nancy Wortham? She didn't say amen.

39:36 I happen to be looking at her. Her lips were sealed.

39:40 Nancy's not committed to this? What about Mike? Was he silent with her? Did he whack her in the ribs and say, honey, what's wrong with you?

39:45 Why didn't you say an amen? You see, we're in this together, folks. And anyone who's preaching to your eyeballs and the eye is the window of the soul seeking to be sensitive to our corporate ethos, it puts a damper. Now, if the preacher is so insecure about what he's doing that every third sentence he's saying, now, are you with me in this?

40:08 Say amen. Are you committed to this? That's ludicrous. We're not talking about that.

40:13 You see, you can sit there and say, oh, but won't that lead? Folks, we're not children. We're not wackos. I hope we're mature enough to recognize and to implement these biblical principles and to be a check upon one another.

40:29 But if we're persuaded that the corporate amen is both legitimate and desirable, and we're committed to corporate edification above all else, 1 Corinthians 14, three times, the regulating principle for everything in corporate edification, corporate worship is let all things be done unto edifying. The proper place of the corporate amen is a critical element in our edification, both directions with one another. And surely, if ever we are conscious of something beyond ourselves, it should be when we gather together. Philippians chapter 2, let each man look not upon his own things, but the things of each other.

41:13 Let this mind be in you. Which was also in Christ Jesus. And be assured, as I told one or two people who spoke to me about their concern about excesses, if any of you goes too far and you begin to manifest a pattern that in the judgment of your elders is unseemly, distracting, having a negative effect on the congregation, I assure you, will lovingly have a hand on your shoulder saying, brother, dear sister, we appreciate your service. We appreciate your holy enthusiasm.

41:48 However, the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. The fruit of the spirit is self-control. Tone it down. Reign it in.

41:58 You're being a little bit too repetitive in your amens. You're distracting. And we'll have a climate in which we can, in godly love and concern for one another, monitor those things to our mutual good and to the glory of God. Well, that's what I'd hope to say and get through in my notes, and I did, and we've got seven minutes left for rebuttal, questions.

Questions and Answers: Women's Participation and Volume of Amen

42:28 Yes, Judy. Nice and loud.

42:36 Yes. And I speak to the issue of women keeping silence in the church. Right there in 1 Corinthians 14,

42:45 where Paul speaks about a woman's silence, later on in the chapter, there's absolutely no indication that when he says in verse 16 that how shall he that fills the place of the unlearned say the amen, there's no indication that a woman's silence has to do with her singing the praise of God, affirming her commitment to the truth of God, her affirmation of the praise that has been sung by her amen. There's not a shred of evidence that that is a sexually conditioned involvement in the worship of the church. Authoritative teaching and preaching, yes, as we'll see in our reading in the morning worship in Philippians 4, one of the points I want to make, Paul calls Iodia and Syntyche his fellow workers in the gospel, unashamedly, and he puts them ahead of some of the male workers that are mentioned in that list of people. So that if women can be fellow workers with an apostle without violating the prohibition of female role in the authoritative rule and teaching of the church, then surely there is no indication we ought to have compelling biblical witness to say that a woman is somehow forbidden these elements that are part of what we might call the genderless elements of worship and congregational life. All right? This saying

44:14 pleased the whole multitude and they chose. It doesn't say the males in the multitude. Apparently the women had some input in the choice of those seven in Acts chapter 6, which is why we have at least one woman on our advisory committee every year. We think it expresses a biblical principle.

44:34 Does that answer your question, Judy?

44:43 Yeah.

44:46 Yeah. Yeah. Now you need to ask yourself, why do I feel uncomfortable?

44:56 You see? And if the reason for it is not biblical, then kick it in the teeth and ride over it and say your amen. I mean, if I'm making some special application to the women that is honey to the soul of the women and I'm not and it's just vinegar to the men, I don't expect the men to say amen.

45:19 It was interesting when I was preaching on Ephesians 5 and I was going after what I called the bozos. Remember? I said I'm not going to say that anymore. Well, I'm not saying, I'm just reminding you what I did say before I repented.

45:34 I had some of the women come to me and when I was going after the women I had some of the men say, Pastor, I didn't want to say amen unless my wife thought that I was, you know, saying, you know, Pastor, give it to her and I had some women say the same thing. Well, that showed sensitivity. You didn't want your good to be evil spoken of. But in terms of certain applications of the word of God that come as honey to the soul of a woman, why should she not be able to express?

46:01 Now, you see, if a woman is violating the general spirit of a meek and a quiet spirit and she begins to be marked as the dominant voice in the congregation and over a period of, three months, you could count that she said nine-tenths of the loud. Obviously, she's got a problem, a deeper problem and we'd have to address that matter and we would. We would. And so, I would say, Judy, don't assume that you're overstepping the biblical bounds unless your husband or a mature man, sister, one of your elders speaks to you and says, I think maybe you're stepping over the bounds.

46:42 I mean, I deeply appreciate, other women have said the same thing to me, that because they have internalized and do not resent their God-given place in the marital relationship, in submission to their husband, they love it that this is a church in which the leadership is male-dominant and obviously so. They have no problem with that, that they are very, very concerned lest they do anything that would look like they're throwing over that gracious yoke of male-dominantness. But I would say in my understanding of the scriptures, this would not be interpreted as that and anyone who interpreted it that way needs to get his head sorted out with the Bible would be my judgment. All right?

47:27 That helpful? Good. All right? Further questions?

47:32 We've got two, three more minutes.

47:35 Yes, Eli, nice and loud, please.

47:46 Yeah. Yeah, basically, in my understanding is that certain things, if I were standing here this morning, just like I wanted to, to question Leslie, his question was, would I address the matter of the volume of the Amen? I'm sorry, I didn't repeat it for you. All right?

48:03 Good.

48:05 That if, if someone is asking for an affirmation, then obviously you're interacting with the person here. The Amen ought to be such that it can be heard. The same way when I said, all right, Eli, you've got a question, speak up so I can hear it and the rest of the people can hear it. If it's a matter of one of those personal things where, in a prayer, a petition is particularly relevant to you, then, of course, a more subdued Amen because that's basically between you and God.

48:34 It would be similar to what you do in your family worship or praying with your wife. And those are the areas, again, where grace does not war against nature. And that is something we almost instinctively know. That if, if it is one of these matters of where the word, the particular petition, or the particular application of the Scripture has come home to my heart, how loud do I need to make my Amen to give vent to that wineskin of the heart?

49:04 Well, that differs from person to person. Temperament, personality, all of those factors come in. And, you see, grace doesn't war with nature. And I'd hate to have us, you know, feel that we need to have on every pew a decibel reader.

49:17 And if your Amen got beyond that decibel, you can't... No, we want to have the liberty and freedom for, you know, for in my backyard where we've got a bird feeder.

49:28 I've marveled at the way, the different temperament of all the birds. The cardinal, he comes out to get his seed and he's always cautious in his own cardinal way. He looks up this way, looks up this way, with the little sparrows, jump! They go right to the bird feeder.

49:43 And there's one little guy in there. He's a selfish, depraved guy. Anyone comes near him when he's in that feeder, I mean, he pecks at them and says, this might...

49:53 Each bird is in his own way. And we want to have a climate where the God-given diversity of personality and temperament is not swallowed up. We want it liberated to the glory of God in elements that need to be refined and liberated. We'll get refined and restrained and liberated.

50:12 But we don't want a wooden across-the-board, flat concept of these matters. And if anything that I've said today would in any way push us in that direction, I would be deeply grieved. Amen? Is that making sense, Eli?

Conclusion and Prayer

50:27 Well, I need not only to make sense, I need to close on time. And it's time to close. Thank you for your attention. And I trust God will help us in these matters.

50:38 We're not fiddling while Rome burns. This is, I believe, a very critical element of our life together. And we do want to honor the Lord in these matters. Let's pray together.

50:50 Father, we're so thankful that we can meet in your presence. And we have your word as a lamp to our feet. And a light to our pathway. And we pray that the enemy of our souls would gain no advantage over us in these matters.

51:05 That none of your tender conscience sheep would come into any kind of bondage. That we would know that freedom that is ours in Christ. Free to be what you would have us to be to your glory and to your praise. So we ask you to take the things we've considered.

51:24 Give us discernment in reflecting in our lives. And we pray that we may be reflecting upon them in weeding out what has the chaff of men's thinking and help us in all things to glorify and honor you. Lord, this is the great passion of our hearts that individually and in our life together in this place you will be honored. Hear then our prayer and answer us we plead through Jesus Christ our Lord.

51:51 Amen.