Miscellaneous Concerns of Congregational Life (SS)

Introduction and Explanation for Open Forum

0:03 The following message was delivered on Sunday morning, April 13, 2003, in the adult Sunday school class at Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey.

0:18 Now, I see at least one visitor. There may be more. And for their sakes and for the sake of our own people who may not be aware of why I'm standing before you this morning, just a word of explanation is in order. Ordinarily, Pastor Carlson would be standing here leading us in our study of the Gospel of Luke, using as our associate teacher Michael Wilcock and his very helpful commentary on the Gospel of Luke.

0:48 I remind you that next Lord's Day, God willing, you ought to have studied the chapter in which the major section begins on the words of Christ, and that first section is called The Way.

1:02 It's 951 to 1042, and we would urge you to do your homework and come prepared for the class. Pastor Carlson is out in Livermore, California, at a West Coast Pastors Conference. It was his desire and a desire that we as elders felt was a noble and righteous desire to express some true ecumenicity between the East Coast and the West Coast brethren. And we have a country, as you know, with three...

1:32 3,000 miles in between those coasts. And the brethren on the West Coast have an annual Pastors Conference that draws together men from that general area. And it's difficult for many of those men to come all the way east to our Pastors Conference and to express our oneness in Christ and our fellowship in the Gospel. We felt it would be good to send our brother, Pastor Carlson, and as I spoke to him at some length two days ago, that purpose has been wonderfully accomplished.

2:02 He's having some very encouraging interaction with individual brethren, and they have expressed their gratitude that we judged the investment of his time to be worthwhile to have him go to that conference. Now, he announced last Lord's Day that I would be conducting what we have called in the past an open forum. Frankly, I'm not sure I like that terminology given the connotations in our area with respect to the past. I'm not sure I like that terminology given the connotations in our area with respect to a certain teacher who has open forums on the radio.

2:37 But generally what we do in those, quote, open forums, parenthesis, defined by TBC and not by Mr. Camping, is that we take general questions from you, the Lord's people, on matters that may be related to the various public ministries or issues of the Christian life with which you are struggling, and we seek to wrestle with them together with an open Bible. And we had but one question submitted for this hour, and it was a written question, but it was anonymous, and it raised the subject of dancing. And as I read it and then shared it with my fellow elders, we felt that the question should not be addressed until I had opportunity to speak personally to the person who submitted it. So I would ask that Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous who submitted that question, and I'm not in any way...

3:32 I'm not casting any shadow over the fact that it was submitted anonymously, that you would speak to me personally at a convenient time because I have some questions about your question that I could not with good conscience address it in a public forum until I had more specific information. So as I prayerfully considered and then discussed with my fellow elders at our elders' meeting on Thursday what would be the best way to invest this time, my brethren and I felt that there are some matters in our life together that it would be an opportune time for me to address. There may be opportunity for questions following up from the issues that I do address by way of explanation and explication from the Scriptures. And so that's what we're going to do. And time permitting, there are five categories of miscellaneous concerns that I want to address with you. Over the years, we have tried to adopt a biblical policy of continually bringing what we do in our congregational life and how we do it under the scrutiny of the Scriptures and under a constant reflection of whether or not what we are doing and why we are doing it is the right or the best way to do it.

Rationale for Call to Worship and Opening Invocation

4:58 We never feel we've arrived in any area. We do believe that our basic doctrinal underpinnings reflect historic, biblical, evangelical, Protestant Christianity. So we are not going back through our confession, continually examining it and seeing if we need to redefine the nature of Christ, person, true God, true man, united in one person forever, those foundational issues, but matters relative more particularly to our worship, to our format, to our liturgy, for we do have a liturgy, though we don't have a printed liturgy, we have a liturgy, we have a form by which we believe we can draw near to God and incorporate into that drawing near to God those elements of worship mandated by the Scriptures. And so as we continually do engage in that process of reflection and evaluation, several changes have been engaged and incorporated and are in the process of being incorporated and our pattern over the years has always been that instruction precedes any adjustment in practice. And we've kind of violated that at this juncture and just incorporated some minor changes without instruction. So today we put the horse again in front of the cart by way of explanation.

6:28 First of all, some of you, I hope, will have noticed that in leading particularly the morning worship hour, I have begun to incorporate what would be called a call to worship and an opening invocation. Our pattern for a number of years has been after the announcements to say, alright, our psalm, which will constitute a call and a litany of how we are to draw near to God is such and such a psalm and then there will be a brief explanation of the psalm, a reading of the entire psalm or portions of the psalm, then a singing of the metrical version of that psalm and then an opening prayer. So that often we are seven to eight minutes into our worship service before we have invoked the presence and the blessing of God. And we have felt as elders that that ought not to be. That on the very front end of our drawing near to God there ought to be the corporate acknowledgement of our need of the presence and the blessing of God upon what we are doing. And so we have begun to incorporate what we could call is a brief call to worship and an invocation, a briefer prayer responding to that call to worship praying that God would be with us and own and bless our worship

7:58 on any given day. And as we have begun to do this not only are we as elders convinced that this is the right thing to do we believe that it ties us in more clearly to what we would call the historic liturgy of the churches of Christ that came out of the Reformation. If you'll take your hymnal you will notice in the front of the hymnal where the pages are numbered by Roman numerals that on page 10X you have this large heading Opening Sentences. Now this is there because part of the liturgy of most Orthodox Presbyterian churches and other Presbyterian churches and churches that have been born out of the Reformation have had this as part of the liturgy in which the pastor, the elder who is leading the worship would stand and introducing the worship read one of these brief opening sentences. If you were to take a concordance you would find that these that are listed on pages 10 and 11 in our hymn book are for the most part phrases, sentences out of the given Psalm or portion of the Word of God sometimes two different verses out of the same Psalm

9:27 sometimes there is a conjunction of verses from different portions of the Word of God but they are meant to be a call to worship and so in the coming days this will be part of the worship services in which there will be an opening sentence taken perhaps from this section in our hymn book or perhaps from other appropriate portions of the Word of God for example the one that I'm going to use this morning if you'll turn to Revelation chapter 4 and verse 10b and 11 here in this portion of the Word of God we have a description of what these who are called elders are doing in the presence of God they cast their crowns before the throne saying worthy are you our Lord and our God to receive the glory, the honor, the power for you did create all things and because of your will they were and were created and then I will say let us pray and in my prayer my prayer will be oh Lord as we come this morning help us to do what these 24 elders are doing inwardly to bow before your throne and to acknowledge that you are worthy of worship and praise and honor

10:54 help us as we seek to join them in our worship this day something along that line now that's the rationale for it we believe that it will be for us as the Lord's people an added incentive to recognize at the very outset our utter dependence upon God for all that we do in our worship even to understand and to rightly apply that portion of the Psalm that will be read to frame the remainder of our worship so that's the rationale behind this call to worship this opening sentence now we're not going to do what happened in one church I was in it was very dramatic but I think it was a little bit overly dramatic in which the pastor read a call to worship which was a portion of the word of God in which God was directly speaking to his people and he didn't speak it from the pulpit but he spoke it from some unseen place and it came through an overhead speaker as though the unseen Lord himself was calling his people well there was an element in it that I liked but there was another element in it that I said no I think it crossed the line in being a bit overly dramatic but you see the spirit of it was right that the people of God should recognize it's not the minister who calls them to worship

Rationale for Changes in Prayer Meeting Format

12:23 it is the living God himself who calls his people to his footstool in order to pour out their worship before him so that's what I wanted to say by way of explanation this is not a matter of just trying to do something novel do something different you who've been here any length of time know that we have no sympathy for novelty for novelty's sake but we are seeking by the grace of God to constantly conform our life together to the patterns of the word of God now secondly you know those of you who attend the prayer meeting know that there's been a change in the prayer meeting format for a number of years the ordinary format has been to lay out a very lengthy number of requests in usually two or three segments of prayer time and increasingly I'm the one who has particularly felt uneasy with what happens when four or five letters have been read often with four or five different requests in every letter so when we come to prayer the men who are going to lead us in prayer our sisters who are seeking to enter in in a symphony of agreement with us in prayer have generally about twenty-five different requests floating around in our heads and so one brother will lead in prayer and he may take requests from the first and the fourth letter and he may incorporate maybe two

13:51 from the four that were in the first and one from the fourth letter so what happens and I think you men will be honest while that brother's praying you're not so much entering in wholeheartedly to what he's praying but if you intend to pray lead in prayer you're thinking Lord which ones did he include which ones are left from which letter so that to a great degree those of us who are to lead in prayer instead of having our hearts running out in what Jesus calls in Matthew 18 and this is a very significant passage Matthew 18 if two of you shall agree on earth as touching what they ask it shall be done of my Father and that verb agree is the very word from which we get by transliterating from Greek to English symphony if two of you shall symphonize if two of you shall have your hearts coalescing in this focused concentrated concern with respect to the thing for which you pray it shall be done of my Father who is in heaven and I have increasingly felt that the format we have had militates against that symphony of focused and concentrated commitment to the specific items in our praying you will notice

15:20 when you study the prayer request that the apostle gives in his letter they are never convoluted they are never diffusive they are never multiple prayer requests I want us to look at several of them because we say we believe scripture is the sufficient rule of faith and practice I want us to look at three prayer requests laid out by the apostle Paul Romans chapter 15 here you are sitting in the church at Rome and remember you had no written epistle Paul did not have or the elders at Rome did not have a copying machine and Paul faxed or emailed his letter and by the time they gathered for prayer they just distributed the fax or email communication there was one letter on one piece of parchment or several pieces of parchment and the elders read or whoever was appointed to read someone who had a gift of public reading and that is a gift not everyone has it and I'm sure they would have chosen those who could give optimum edification by the manner in which they read and now they came to chapter 15 what is for us chapter 15 verse 30 now I beseech you brethren by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the spirit that you strive together with me

16:47 in your prayers to God for me now notice his request number one that I may be delivered from them that are disobedient in Judea and number two that my ministration which I have for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints number three that I may come to you in joy through the will of God now close your Bible what are the pre-prayer requests delivered from unreasonable men my ministry accepted that I may come to you in joy so when the elder said now brethren let's respond to the apostle's prayer request several brethren lead us there was a concentration there was not this diffusiveness of 10 or 15 or 20 different prayer requests so that the brother leading in prayer says which one shall I choose the other brother is going to lead in prayer say which ones did he tick off it creates a kind of mental confusion and diffusiveness that militates against this concentrated symphony of heart and of intercessory energy if I may use that term Ephesians chapter 6 we are going to look I said at three witnesses Ephesians 6 Paul has given his general instruction concerning the Christian taking the whole armor of God and over all of it

18:15 he says you are to give yourself to prayer verse 18 with all prayer and supplication praying it all seasons in the spirit watching there unto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints having some framework in which there was a systematic comprehensive taking in of all the saints in their prayers now look at verse 19 and on my behalf what do you want us to pray for Paul that utterance may be given unto me in the opening of my mouth to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel you pray for Paul utterance given that I may make known the mystery of the gospel so when you went to prayer for Paul you didn't have five ten seven eight different requests floating around in the head this is what Paul wanted us to pray for let's pray for that specific thing second Thessalonians three one and two we have a similar example second Thessalonians three one and two finally brethren pray for us and what are you to pray for us number one that the word of the Lord may run and be glorified even as it is with you number two that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men for all have not faith two prayer requests that the word may run that we may be delivered from unreasonable men and

19:44 it would be easy for the whole congregation when someone said now let us pray for the things the apostle asked for everyone would know deliverance from unreasonable men that the word may run and have free course so I believe there is in the scriptures precedent for what I am trying to set before you the rationale for the changes in the format of our prayer meeting now someone asks but isn't that boxing up the holy spirit to which I answer not necessarily for you will remember in first Corinthians where the holy spirit was giving these unusual temporary gifts of prophecy and of tongues the holy spirit was giving them in a more direct and remarkable way than his gift of utterance to ordinary preachers who as the fruit of their study and their labor come and teach and preach the word prophecy with someone becoming an organ of direct revelation there was a more immediate operation of the holy spirit in the prophet in the tongue speaker and yet in that very setting what did Paul say and he was not quenching the spirit he was not boxing up the spirit look at first Corinthians chapter fourteen he tells us in this very passage verse third twenty seven if any man speaks in a tongue

21:13 let it be by two or at the most three and that in turn and let one interpret if there be no interpreter let him keep silence in the church let him speak to himself and to God and let the prophet speak by two or three and let the others discern here in a setting of a more heightened intense direct operation of the spirit there is numerical allocation to how many speakers there should be and in what order so this structuring need not in any way be an impediment to the freedom of the spirit as we discussed this matter in our elders meeting I said I trust all of us are sensitive enough to the work of the spirit that suppose as we have begun to do we should say now we're going to pray for our unconverted children as we do from time to time will three of the brethren take the lead in that or we may say are there three of you who will volunteer to pray for our unconverted children John and Pete and Harry alright now as those men pray if the spirit of God comes down upon their hearts and our hearts and it's evident there's an unusual enlargement I would hope those of us who lead would have enough discernment to say brethren it's evident the spirit of God is constraining us to lay

22:41 hold of him in this area will several more brethren lead us in prayer and that we would have that sensitivity not to quench the Holy Spirit but we must not have in our minds that there's any inherent contradiction between specific numerical allocation of utterance and the freedom of the Holy Spirit if that's so then Paul was wrong in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 so that's our thinking behind that I've talked to some of our sisters and I believe as they sit and try to enter in to the prayers as we men are the mouthpiece of God it has been easier for them because there is that sense alright I need not be thinking what requests were remembered what requests were not someone said well if all of you elders had everything laid out on paper wouldn't that solve the problem without this structure no it wouldn't because if we have fifteen requests after three or four or five letters what are you going to do if you have a paper after three of the brethren have prayed you're not going to be praying with that third brother you're going to be looking at your paper to see which requests have been omitted and you're going to include so your mind is not agreeing with the one who leads in prayer when he prays but trying to map out where you're going to go in your prayer and you see that fractures this sense of this symphony of concentrated united

24:09 one soul faith and earnest petition as we seek to lay hold of God so that's the rationale for the changes in the format of our prayer meeting now I'm fully aware of the fact that all of us are creatures of habit we don't like change and there may be some of you who are feeling a little bit uncomfortable we've never done it that way so what do we claim to be under the discipline of the ongoing instruction of the word of God there are a lot of things you're doing now that you didn't do when you were two years old that you'd be considered rather a strange person if you still did them the way you did when you were two part of growth and development involves change but as your elders we want to be sensitive to input from you so that if some of you are having problems adjusting to that that we've not anticipated please come to us we're not going to point our finger at you and call you some kind of a Korah like rebel and call down the fire of God upon your head we do want to be sensitive and there may be matters that we have not anticipated that would cause us to say well let's fine tune that a bit more in this direction but this I trust at least gives you a rational and a biblically based explanation for the changes in the

Rationale for Fourth Hymn During Offering

25:37 prayer meeting format then thirdly I don't think there was ever any public explanation of why a couple of years ago we began to incorporate a fourth hymn into our morning worship the hymn during the offering I don't believe there was ever any public explanation except this that I had been in a sister church that did that and I found it very edifying and so I suggested to my fellow elders because in none of these things does any one of us in the eldership act unilaterally my seniority as the one who's been here the longest does not cause decisions to be made with regard to congregational life and I have one of my fellow elders sitting here our junior elder who will bear witness that his consent and input is as significant as any elder in the church in these kinds of decisions is that true Mike? Amen alright so as we interacted as elders we felt and Pastor Jay was not here at that time we felt that if we could respond to the scripture that we have read in our consecutive reading with an appropriate hymn it would be a wonderful expression of our attempt to do what Colossians 3.16 mandates that we are to do please turn to that passage let the word of Christ

27:07 dwell in you richly in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing with grace in your hearts unto God now we desire as your elders that you be a people of the book you go to the average evangelical church today and this is not just my judgment and you could sit through an hour hour and fifteen minute service and not have any more than maybe four or five verses of the bible read or quoted that's a sad fact we attempt to have worship services soaked in our bibles so that's why we have now a call to worship that will be some phrases of scripture we have a psalm that will give us a growing theology of worship we sing a metrical version of that psalm we have the consecutive reading of the new testament in the morning the old testament in the evening the backbone of our worship service is exposition of the scriptures not musical packages not solos not quartets not visual attempts to dramatize the bible no we believe that we ought to have bible

28:36 soaked worship and one dimension of it is having the word of Christ dwell in us richly and producing our songs unto God and so when we read a portion of the word of God it is good for us to make that the stuff and the fuel of our praise to God and since our collection and we may have to consider whether that's the best place to have it or have it at all some of our sister churches have a box at the rear figuring anyone who gives out of principle will give whether it's a plate in front of them or a box behind them but at this juncture we believe there are sufficient scriptures to indicate that our giving is an act of worship and it ought not to be tacked on after the worship service is over we believe there are biblical principles that warrant having quote the collection as part of the worship not simply as a convenient way to keep the boat afloat that's not the rationale for it and what better place then having read a portion of the word of God when our minds can most naturally wander while we are presenting our offering and looking out the corner of our eye for the plate to come by and placing our offering in it then during that time to give back to God in a hymn something that seals and condenses and underscores

30:04 the truth that has come to us in the word of Christ so that's the rationale for adding that fourth hymn it wasn't just done because it was a nice thing to do we tried to think through the issues in the light of the principles and precepts of the word of God so that's the rationale for that now we come to issue number four issue number four is a qualifying explanatory statement growing out of the recent series on discerning honoring and obeying our parents those of you who are here for that series will remember I trust notice I didn't say you certainly will remember I've long since given up thinking that an awful lot that is said is remembered so I will speak in a very hopeful tone you will remember I trust that one of the points I made in opening up our Lord as the pattern of a perfect son was that he is the pattern of principled obedience or submission to his earthly parents though they were sinful and though they were imperfect and so we went to Luke 2 51 and then demonstrated from the scriptures how we know that Mary and Joseph were sinners generically and they were sinners specifically in the way they misjudged Jesus actions in remaining on

Clarification on Parental Authority and Conscience

31:32 at the temple nonetheless he went back down to Nazareth and was subject unto them Luke 2 and verse 51 and then I went on to say he is both our example of principled obedience and our example of righteous resistance to parental expectation and desires that were contrary to the will of God and then I made this statement that no parent has any right to bind the conscience of his child beyond the clear teaching of the word of God now what I meant by that was that in conditioning the consciences of our children we cannot we have no right to mark out their path of duty before God with anything other than our Bibles now that does not mean in fulfilling of our parental duty we can make and must make administrative household decisions on matters that may not bind their conscience for the rest of their lives but while they are under our roof their conscience are bound by this children obey your parents and so when the minor children are under the roof you as a parent have every right to say now son when you are an adult and you choose to be out on your own out from under my roof you may choose to wear a certain kind of clothing

32:59 if before God you can wear that clothing with a good conscience looking at 1 Corinthians 10 31 whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do do all to the glory of God you may be able to drink certain beverages for example you may have deep persuasion that for you and your household no alcoholic beverages ought to be imbibed under any circumstances at any time and so you say to your minor children or to your adult children who choose to live under your house there will be no alcohol in this house and you have every right to do that but you say to your son or your daughter when you choose to leave this home when you come to adult years and you are on your own you will have to sort out before God what your house rules will be with respect to the kind of trousers you wear to the kind of beverages you drink but until such time as you as an adult are out on your own standing directly under the lordship of Christ the rule of this house obtains and I have every right to expect that you will obey me as your father as your mother do you see that distinction now you are not binding and conditioning the conscience of that child that for the rest of his days he must never never even consider

34:26 whether or not he'll wear trousers with double or triple pleats you can't bind the conscience of a child now you can try to condition him to think biblically about what kind of trousers he will wear when he's out from under your house you see the difference I don't know if I see the lights going on do you see the difference in that so that in saying that you must not bind the conscience of your minor children beyond the word of God I was in no way undermining your right and responsibility to establish house rules for your administration of your home and your right to say to your son or daughter while you are under this roof these are the house rules you are to obey me when they come to adult years they may choose to say mom dad I believe I need to establish my own sense of identity with respect to matters where I have sought to be an exemplary obedient son or daughter and therefore they may choose to go out on their own and you're going to let them go you're going to let them go does that mean you do not have a responsibility to say now son have you considered what it will be to be out on your own say to your daughter have you considered

35:56 you have every right and responsibility to help them to see the implications of cutting the cords of living under your roof but if they choose to do so you have no biblical authority to bind them to remain under your roof and to continue to obey your house rules and make it a matter of their obedience or disobedience to God you have no biblical right to do so that's what I was going after the same way while they're under your roof you have no right to impose upon them any directive that would contradict the clearly revealed will of God to cause your child to lie to cheat to disrespect someone because you've got a grudge against them etc etc etc so I hope that clarifies the issue gives fresh clout to you parents if any of your child say where can you prove dad from the bible I shouldn't have my hair down to my shoulders you can say well I think there's some biblical principles that point in that direction son but I don't need to while you're under this house your hair comes down and touches the top of your ears period end of discussion

37:16 go to the barber how old is he if you're not old enough to show him the door now you've got a conflict of wills that you've got to show that you're not going to cave in to his rebellion if he comes 18 years of age you tell him you don't cheerfully obey the house rules there's the door you want your independence there's the door and do it with a good conscience so there are all kinds of things I'm sure sitting there some of you thinking well what about this what about that but I at least wanted to clarify that because one or two spoke to me and indicated that they felt that distinction was not made and of course I couldn't pause look it's taken me what 10 minutes to do it here in this context and I had to get through the basic structure of the sermon and when you're making a given biblical point you can't always give all the qualifications it's just impossible to do so but I'm glad that one or two of you at least spoke to me and I hope again that will be the kind of context that we maintain in our relationship then we know where you're itching so we can scratch I wouldn't have known to scratch at this point if you hadn't indicated that and then the fifth issue I'll address briefly and then I can open up for questions on any of these is the issue

Exhortation Against Chronic Tardiness

38:45 of chronic patterns of someone want to put the next word in there tardiness that's right at 930 when this class began this morning only half of you were here I stood up and said Lord as the plague hit the church what's happened they all lying dead somewhere during the opening hinge dear people I hope you won't get mad at me it's shameful it's inexcusable and I want to challenge you not those of you who occasionally have situations that are unexpected etc etc but those of you who have a chronic pattern of tardiness may I leave you with three texts of scripture text number one is Matthew 7 12 as you would that others should do unto you even so do ye also unto them for this is the law and the prophets put yourself in the place of those of us leading in worship we labor we think we pray

40:13 now an additional element in that labor and thinking an appropriate fresh non hackneyed call to worship that's going to be a task week in week out month in month out not to have predictable calls to worship it's going to be a labor we labor over that for what end to draw you in immediately to the worship of God we labor to construct prayers that are not predictable do you know how much time it takes to prepare prayers in the same congregation week in week out month in month out year in year out and keep them fresh you have any idea even the terms you use when you approach God do you know what names of God I will use in my pastoral prayer this morning no they're unpredictable and that doesn't just happen it means I scour at times my valley of vision for the addresses of God in those wonderful prayers it means I look back at the worship book where I write out my opening words of prayer and I say oh I've used gracious father majestic glorious God I'm using that too much Lord and people aren't there

41:41 to absorb that growing deposit of rich concepts of God in the opening words of an opening prayer how would you feel if you labor for the good of your people and they don't discipline their time and the events leading to getting on time that they miss that benefit as you would that others do unto you even so do ye also unto them for this is the law and the prophets I lay the golden rule upon the conscience of you chronic tardy people and I'm not looking at any individual you know who you are suffer the word of exhortation second text Galatians 5 22 and 23 the fruit of the spirit is love love works no ill to his neighbor and what's the last of the fruit of the spirit self control you have control of yourself your schedule the things you need to do to get yourself and get the kids ready to get there on time may I say it spirit filled Christians do not have a pattern of chronic tardiness because the fruit of the spirit is self

43:09 control third text Titus 2 7 speaking to Titus Christian leader having given to Titus all the things he used to tell the different categories he says in everything showing yourself a typos a type a pattern of good works dear parents mark it down if you're chronically tardy you're raising a generation of kids that are going to be an irritant to their pastors in everything show yourself a pattern say to the kids if we're to be examples as mom and dad of promptness this is what must be done in this household tardiness must be looked upon as something that is off the charts for me and my house well brethren if those three texts don't get you off dead center I don't know what will so no sense adding anymore and we've got about 10 minutes so I'm ready to entertain questions on any of these five matters the call to worship changes in the prayer meeting format incorporation of our fourth in the issue of parental authority and chronic tardiness okay yes bill nice and loud

Q&A and Concluding Remarks

44:36 one question you're not like those crazy reporters or I'll treat you like Donald Rumsfeld does

44:48 enough said all right I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I yes yes all right bill was saying yeah I'm coming to you I'm gonna keep my problem is brother good alright the righteous swears to his own hurt and keeps it I promise our brother Leslie that I'd be sure to give him the feedback our brother bill basically said that he

46:14 finds it helpful if the one who agrees to pray pray specifically for specific things then if he has said I'll be the next man to pray he's not thinking what things did he pray for what things did he overlook so that again there'll be some fine-tuning in this bill and it may be that we'll want to even be assist for example the way I have done it is to read a letter and say now here's two items of praise here are three requests which brother would like to take the three or I may say like I did I didn't ask for volunteers and get specific names I said I will two brethren lead us maybe it's better than to say will one brother lead and give thanks to God for the items of praise a second brother bring the three requests before God and that may be as I say we're in the process of fine-tuning it bill and I appreciate that input so that when we're praying the first brother then is not thinking all right what's he praying what do I need to pray but you know what you're going to pray for and well that brother's given thanks to God you can let your heart run at a hundred miles an hour give him thanks to God and then when he says his amen because okay now it's time for me to bring the three petitions yeah very good that's helpful this is the kind of thing that will be helpful to us as we try to fine-tune this and and to bring together as many

47:35 of the biblical principles as we can to optimum edification for the entire assembly of God's people all right another question yes Gary Gary said what I add to this what the attitude of the person is toward God Gary I'm reluctant to say that it's indicative of a sloppy view of God I didn't want to go that far I'll go as far as to say it could be in some cases an indication of a sloppy view of God and I'm reluctant to say that of a low view of God and I would ask anyone who is chronically tardy to search his or her own heart but I think over the years I've seen people that I had every reason to believe they had a high view of God and a high view of his worship they just hadn't seen the relationship between that and getting here on time and I would not want to attribute evil where evil was not present alright so that's why I didn't incorporate something like that but I'm glad you raised it and I think we must be careful see here's again in our interaction you see that person you're trying to concentrate prepare your heart

49:03 and in the midst of the opening hymn here they come traipsing in and sit next to you and distract etc we got to be careful of reading in the motives on that given Lord's day maybe they had a kid that puked all over him just as they were going out the door and so the very fact that they're there smelling sweet shows that they you know they really had to do some last minute gymnastics to change their shirt and change their jacket etc so that we must be careful of judging the motives of others however if in the providence of God where we sit a chronic late comer happens to sit next to us it would certainly be keeping with Hebrews 3.13 exhort one another you see it to go in graciousness and say brother I don't know what the circumstances are there may be all kinds of I don't know but have you considered whether or not your chronic tardiness is something that you ought to deal with before God and go with that attitude now brother you got a low view of God you have no self control no no no no you don't want to be dealt that way I don't like it when someone comes to me having sent the case to the jury and coming back and reading a sentence on me but when someone puts a hand on my shoulder and says now brother maybe you know there are things I'm not aware of but I've noticed such and such could you help explain to me why that's so I mean he's got me when someone comes that way that's the wise reprover

50:31 upon an obedient ear that Solomon talks about okay yeah that's right yeah we don't think of that so I think it's well to raise it and to search our own hearts could it be that that's why I use the term could it be that chronic tardiness is an indication of a lower view of God all right yes Elmer yes Mr. Van Dalen has made the point if people can get to work on time five days a week to keep their job and keep the smile of their boss is God not worthy of whatever disciplines are necessary to get on time to his worship I think that's a good point Elmer we've got two minutes left yes Ron nice and loud please yes yes yes yes Yes

51:59 yes yes yes yeah well this is a clear example why we see we can't judge till we get the facts Ron is saying he's often late because he helps hook people into the phones downstairs then he's often a greeter outside and you wanna make sure that you don't have last minute strangers coming no one to greet them so he'll come in late so if any of you notice that he was chronically late before you judged him you see there's the issue brethren before you judged him You judged him. You go to him and say, Brother Ron, I've noticed that you come in late quite frequently. Can you help explain to me why that is? He'd say, oh, I'd be glad to. And then you're so glad you didn't judge him and asked before you drew conclusions. But brethren, there is precious little of that among us.

52:58 We judge before we get the facts. And John 7.23 says, Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Get your facts.

53:13 Get your facts.

53:16 Did you hear me? What did I say? Get your facts. And get them not in an accusatory way.

53:24 The fact that he's here every time the doors are open shows he loves this place. Huh? Even the latecomer. The fact that he's here every time the doors are open.

53:34 He loves the place. He loves you. So go to him nice and sweet. And say, my brother, my sister, I know you love the people of God here, don't you?

53:45 Oh, yes. I know you love the word preached here. Oh, yes. You love the ministry here, don't you?

53:51 Oh, yes. I have no question about it. There's something that troubles me a little bit. Can you help me?

53:58 Is there some reason why you're always tumbling in here five minutes late? See? You've set them. You've set them up with goodwill.

54:07 And that's not just a psychological ploy. That's what the Bible means by being a wise reprover. And brethren, if we had that kind of climate among us, all kinds of things would be dealt with without the elders ever having to know about it, let alone deal with it. Now, I don't get a lot of amens, but that's true anyway, whether you believe it or not.

54:29 I'm pontificating like the Pope on that issue.

54:34 And the Pope looks at his clock. And it's time to quit. Well, thank you for hearing me on these matters. And may God help us as we seek to live our lives before the eye of Christ with ever-increasing obedience to the word of God.

54:49 Let's pray.

54:51 Lord, I do thank you for the unspeakable privilege of being one of the under-shepherds of your people in this place, that they have shown over the years a love for you and a desire to conform all of them. And I thank you for that. I thank you for that. I thank you for that.

55:07 I thank you for their life together by the Scriptures and that we have never known what it is over these decades to find resistance to changes when Scripture and sound judgment warrant those changes. What a privilege to be part of such an assembly. And for this, I thank you. Now we pray as we work through these matters together that your blessing will continue to rest upon us.

55:36 And Lord, help. Help each one of us to have a new measure of holy, gracious, loving aggressiveness in our ministry one to another. We ask in Jesus' name. Amen.