Interview with Albert Martin

Introduction and Early Life

0:00 Forgive me. I had a senior moment. I forgot that that Rich and I had agreed that this would be conducted as a kind of interview. And I was getting my little portable podium there and he's looking at me very sweetly and accommodatingly.

0:13 But his time will come. He'll have his senior moments as well. So, as some of my family, I think they they believe they're already happening.

0:24 This has been so outstanding. I, I, I just thank you and praise God for you. Before we before we begin this interview, I want to ask everyone to please remember when Pastor Martin leaves here to be praying for him and for his family. He's been open with us and don't let that pass without remembrance for them.

Conversion Testimony and Early Spiritual Struggles

1:01 Could you tell us how you came to faith in Christ? Well, as I intimated last night, I don't know the day, even the month when God was pleased to bring me into saving union with Christ. But I had the privilege of being born into a home with a godly mother and father. Their background in Christian understanding was very limited.

1:28 They had a background in the Salvation Army. And my mother's mother was a Swedish. Pentecostal, a very godly woman, a woman of much prayer, but again, limited in her understanding of the scriptures. We would understand them and love them.

1:43 But I was reared in a home where the basic biblical truths of God, knowing who I was, what I did, where I went. I cannot remember a time when I did not have a very real God consciousness and that the God of whom I was. Conscious was a holy God. He hated sin.

2:06 There was a hell to be shunned, a heaven to be gained. And as a child, as I alluded in the message today, I used to be fearful of dying and going to hell. I would say, Lord, take away my sins and I want to serve you. And I would make a fresh start and made a number of, quote, decisions.

2:25 Because in the Salvation Army, every 13 weeks, they had what they called Decision Sunday. And they had something that looked like this thing. It's been moved to the side. They didn't call it an altar, but they called it a penitent form in the Salvation Army.

2:39 And many a time, as a little boy, I'd go up, a young preteen, crying, conscious of my sin. And I remember singing the little chorus, into my heart, into my heart, come in to my heart, Lord Jesus. Come in today, come in to stay. But it never seemed like he came in to stay.

2:57 I'd make a decision. I'd begin to try to read my Bible and live the way a Christian lives. But then it would peter out and the pressure of my own sinful heart and then the pressure of peers in school, etc. I never went through what people would call a rebellious stage in that I knew.

3:17 I never once ever said the word no to my father. I would not have dared. I would have sooner dared to get in the way of an oncoming freight train and defy it to run me over than to say the word no to my father or speak disrespectfully to my mother. So they were faithful in dealing with me.

3:36 When they would find out, I'd use some bad words from one of the neighbors. When all the other kids, I'm one of ten, second oldest of ten children, so there was a new baby every two years. They would say, Sonny, and I was Sonny until I was twenty. I used to be amazed that perfect strangers would know my name.

3:52 They'd say, Hey, Sonny. And I'd say, Mom, how come he knows my name? I never met him. But they would say, Sonny, we'd like you to stay up when the others go to bed.

4:00 And I knew that Mom and Dad were then going to sit me down. Tell me that they had discovered some area of sinful pattern. And then they'd point me to Christ as best they knew how. Urge me to pray and ask God to work in me.

4:14 And so there were those many false starts. They're sort of like Braxton Hicks' false labor, ladies. You think this is the real thing and you've got nothing to show for it. And yet God was keeping my heart tender so that I remember when I came into my early teens, I used to resent the fact that my buddies could sin.

4:33 And enjoy it. And I can remember feeling so frustrated. I said, They seem to enjoy what they're doing. If I tried to do what they did, I was miserable.

4:43 And so here I had a sensitive conscience, the light of the gospel, but no heart that was united to Christ in faith and love. Well, to make a long story short, God very mercifully began to work in my senior year of high school. And to this day, my mother seems to have a clearer record of the specifics than I do. God brought into our area a Scottish man who was in his late 20s, early 30s.

Genuine Conversion and Call to Preach

5:09 He and his wife had come from Scotland in order to be professional dancers. And God saved them out of a raw, typical lifestyle of complete hedonism. And that man began to witness to some of us who were at that time attending a mainline sort of anemic evangelical baptism. This church.

5:34 And through his influence, some of us began to get together to pray. And it was sometime during that period when we were having these Saturday night prayer meetings and this man was exhorting us and witnessing to us that I found that there began to emerge in my life a hunger for spiritual reality. I got a Thompson Chain reference Bible that I bought by peddling my bicycle, delivering Western. Union telegrams and handing out tracts with a telegram.

6:06 It was during that period that God gave me a tremendous hunger for the word. And prayer became a delight. My buddies and I, we thought nothing. I've never prayed as much in my life.

6:16 We thought nothing of getting together two, three times a week, praying for an hour or two at a stretch, having half nights of prayer. And it was at that time that God put his hand on me to preach. That may be another question, but it was in that period somewhere between the end, the end of the year 1951 and the football annual banquet in January of 52, because I do remember at that banquet going up and down the rows of tables, giving tracts to all my buddies. And by that time, God had really laid hold of me.

6:49 Christ had become the object of my trust. The fear and dread of hell and judgment were gone. I could pillow my head with joy. And God was pleased during that time period to make it very evident, that he had united me to Christ and made me a new creature in him.

Significant Influences: Mother and Co-Pastor

7:07 Who would you say are the, let's say, two most important or significant people in your life, as you look at your entire life? Over the whole lifespan? Yeah. Well, I would say, of course, my mother, who has outlived my dad.

7:23 My dad died, what, eight years ago now. He was five, six years older than my mother. He was a week shy of 85, died of prostate cancer. My mother, still very much alive, as she walked in this room, she'd know all of your names within a half an hour, and who your grandchildren were.

7:41 And she's an amazing woman. And she had, and continues to have, a profound influence upon my life. And then, in 1970, in my second or third trip to the United Kingdom, God brought a dear West Indian brother, black as the ace of spades, who had emigrated to England, and was converted. He went to England to become a priest.

8:05 And God saved him. And he and I met at a minister's conference. And on our knees, in my room, God gave us a Jonathan and David relationship. After a very lengthy series, a session of intense prayer, I'll never forget it.

8:20 We rose from our knees, both of us, tears streaming down our eyes. And we embraced and we experienced what the Scripture says. The soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David. And that friendship now has extended over 30 years.

8:36 And just thinking of that man is a prod to me in my prayer life and in personal godliness. I've never known a man that knows how to lay hold of God like he does, or who walks more carefully before the Lord. There are times when he and I used to pray. He came over and was co-pastor with me for two years.

8:55 I remember one or two times peeking out of my eyes, he was so Jacob-like in wrestling with God, and laying his arguments before God. I almost half expected to see a theophany. I mean, I've never seen an angel or heard an angel. But when he'd get wrestling with God, Lord, have you not said?

9:14 It is the word of the King. Lord, you cannot lie. This is your word. And it was like he had his Bible open under God's nose and saying, God, you've got to do this.

9:24 And just thinking about him makes me miss him. So he's had next, of course, to my wife of 45 years. So he's had next, of course, to my wife of 45 years. So it's hard to narrow it down to two, but that would be the inner circle.

Impact of John Owen and Practical Mortification of Sin

9:36 Thank you. If you were to pick one book that's, apart from the scriptures, which of course is the book, which book has most affected you in your life and ministry? Well, I get asked that, and usually they're kinder. They say, what, half a dozen books?

9:54 And of course, certain books in a certain area leave a lasting impression. But probably in terms of seeking to live, a consistent Christian life, nothing has been more helpful than volume six of John Owen and his treatises on the mortification of sin, indwelling sin and temptation. And one of the ways God made that such a part of my life was every three years when we were training men for the ministry for 20 years, we would have a, we called it our intercession. It was a module taught between terms.

10:31 In the month of January, in which we would for two weeks just bury ourselves in volume six of Owen, particularly the opening treatise on the mortification of sin. And in learning how to deal with temptation and with remaining sin, nothing has been more helpful to me than that book by John Owen. Thank you. I'd like to ask you a very practical question about that then.

10:56 In many of your sermons, you deal with the war of the flesh. And the spirit. And your own battles to see victory. In practical terms, what could you recommend?

11:11 How have you seen conquest over the lust of the flesh and the temptations that abound in one's life? Well, I could wish that from my early Christian experience I had been taught the truths contained particularly in Romans 6 and Colossians 3 concerning the fact that in union with Christ all that I am as old man in Adam has been put to death, buried, and I am now a new man in union with Christ. Not a perfect new man, but I am the new man being renewed after the image of him that created me. And seeking to come to grips with that reality sin is a usurper. The devil is a mock sovereign. And to know that in Christ there is no sin that has a right to lord it over me. Romans 6, 14 Sin shall not exercise lordship over you.

12:21 Why? You are no longer under the dominion of sin. You are no longer under law. That is, exposed to law as a helpless sinner who loves sin, is condemned by the law.

12:31 You are no longer under law in that sense, but under grace. I am in union with Christ. I have the responsibility and privilege to reckon upon the reality of that union and in the light of it when sin would seek to seduce me determine, no, I am a new man in Christ. My members belong to Christ.

12:50 They are part of what I am as new man in Christ. I will not give my eyes to look at that commercial that shows too much nakedness or naked flesh. I will not give my eyes to look at that which is displeasing. I will not give my ears.

13:07 My members don't belong to sin and to the devil. They belong to Christ. And reckoning upon the reality of that I will consciously present them to Him. And it means at the most elementary level that here on this campground there have been a couple of situations where I've just literally turned my head in a different direction.

13:27 I have no reason to think that any women or girls here are dressing in a way to be deliberately provocative but I think some of you have been a little careless and you've showed too much of your thighs. Frankly, I'm being honest. So I have a choice to do. I can let my eyes look on the thighs or I can turn them away and say Lord, thank you for the beautiful trees and have a good conscience.

13:51 That's presenting my members as instruments of righteousness unto God not presenting my members unto sin. That's the truth. Particularly in Romans 6 and then in Colossians chapter 3 has been exceedingly helpful and as I've matured as a Christian I've come to appreciate that more. But then I think another principle that I learned from Owen that has been tremendously helpful to me where Owen drives home the fact that if we are not serious about blocking up the occasions of sin we're not serious about overcoming sin itself.

14:25 If we deliberately leave ourselves vulnerable to that which we know is a weakness for me, for example I have a good measure of discipline over all kinds of sweets. Someone can give us a cake or a pie and I can have a very little moderate piece that I know is within my caloric intake to keep healthy and it's no big deal. But once a year my wife makes me a pecan pie and I am in front of a pecan pie I am like a heroin junkie in front of a bag of white stuff. So, if it's something that's like pecan pie to me why go by it fall and have a bad conscience and have to repent honey hide the pecan pie and don't tell me where it is till I know I should have a piece. Well my pecan pie, some of you may be the newspaper and again and again you let the newspaper keep you from your devotions in the morning. It's very simple, stop the newspaper. You won't go to hell and the latest status of the Blue Jays or the Canadians you have to take a no-nonsense honest approach. Is the newspaper

15:38 a stumbling block to me? Get rid of it. You men. Is the internet a stumbling block?

15:44 You pushing the few wrong buttons and seeing things no Christian man should see? Get rid of the internet. I wouldn't have it. I don't trust myself.

15:54 I would not trust myself. I can go to heaven without knowing everything I want to know in the internet but I'm going to heaven if I become one of these pastors who becomes a secret and addict to pornography for no unclean person shall enter the kingdom of heaven. It's heaven or hell and we've got to be persuaded of that and take every measure to cut off right hands. I mean when you think of what the Lord says that's gruesome business.

16:18 If your hand offends you, cut it off. Lord that's gruesome. Yeah that's fine. That's gruesome but you've got to be holy at any cost.

16:25 And so being ruthless with the things that I know is an occasion of sin to me while not judging that they are an occasion of sin to you. If one of you men comes up to me in the course of talk and says well I saw this in the internet I'm not judging you that you are secretly washing pornography. I'm not. To his own master a servant stands are false.

16:45 But when I read in James Dobson's magazine that over 40% I think it is of the pastors who call in on their hotline call in because they become addicted to pornography what makes me think that the ordinary layman is not tempted in the same way. So we've got to get ruthless with the things that our society says are necessary if they are an occasion of sin they are not necessary. And to deal with sin at every level in that way by the grace of God that's part of mortification and praying lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil and then fleeing the occasions of temptation. I have a picture of your discipline in terms of a number of things that you've mentioned in some ways that accounts for the way you've I guess remained lean and trim all these years but I'd like to ask you this do you have any exercise regime that you subscribe to that you do regularly? Having been a natural athlete and involved in athletics in high school and then after the Lord saved me for a whole year I did not take part in any competitive athletics and for me it would be like an alcoholic trying to have an occasional glass of wine. I just knew I needed to get unhooked and for the most part just my ordinary cardiovascular

Stewardship of the Body and Exercise Regimen

18:13 exercise preaching kept me in fairly good shape. I could go out on Sunday school picnics and I could run circles and hit a ball farther than the teenagers and punt a football farther and throw it farther but when I was coming up on age 40 I'd begun to read more in medical matters. It became clear to me that the sixth commandment meant as the catechism tells us to do all within our power to preserve our life and the life of others and that I needed to take seriously this body which was purchased by Christ and I had gotten up to about 15 pounds heavier than I am now and no one accused me of being, I wasn't a glutton but my metabolism changed at age 34 or 5 so at age 40 I determined to get down to a certain weight that I felt I was comfortable with and that was healthy for me and disciplined myself, began to do some regular cardiovascular exercise, running around my backyard and then running on the street and then over the years from age 40 to age, let's see, 91 I would have been 57 I would run regularly and I found a regimen that was good for me to get my heart rate up to about two and a half, it's normal and just determined that for me I had to stick on about a 2000, 2200 calorie a day diet or I gained weight in spite of working out running three times a week

19:41 so over the years I've adjusted whatever I need to do to keep this instrument in optimum shape and in 91 I had knee surgery and the doctor said no more running on the street so I got a soft bed treadmill, put it in my basement and that's been a wonderful means of grace, I've listened through the scriptures, I don't know how many times I listen to tapes, on certain days I have, I intercede for certain things, so treadmill means praying for this one and that one so I buy up that opportunity to work my cardiovascular system and pray and listen to tapes and I found that the very thing I preached this morning is what is helpful to me when I get on that treadmill I have a regular almost a memorized prayer Oh Lord, I present to you afresh my body, a living sacrifice this is the only instrument in which I can serve you till you take me home bless my heart, bless my lungs, my cardiovascular system and for some reason I like to include the word viscera so I always include the word my viscera I don't know why I do what I do and then I say Lord you know I'm not doing, this is not a macho thing with me, you know Lord that I'm doing this for your glory you've said I'm to glorify you in my body how can I preach what I preached to you this morning if I had to preach it over a big mound of blubber huffing and puffing like an old pack mule and if you're going to be especially a leader of men you've got to keep yourself, you can't do

21:09 more than what God's given you so I'm not into body worship but then I have a slight regimen about 7-8 minutes with a universal that I do to keep my upper body in reasonably good shape so when I go out and do yard work on my day off I'm not sore for a week and so I've altered that along the way but I don't prescribe that for others, I say you find what works for you but remember you have a stewardship of your body and you're to glorify God in your body and bodily exercise is profitable for a little, often that's quoted to say but godliness but it does say bodily exercise profits for a little so I said Lord give me all the profit that you've said it should profit that I might serve you, so that's basically nothing elaborate the church is a pastor what do you think are the two or three most important lessons you've learned from the ministry and the most important helps you've received so that you've been able to pastor the same flock for 40 years well you need to pray to God give a lot of grace to your people put up with you for all that time when when people ask me how long I've been married I say 45 years to the one woman and 40 years in one church they look at me like I'm from another planet

Lessons from Pastoral Ministry and Longevity

22:38 and I say well my people and my wife have great staying power and great patience but seriously I think what has been from the human side one of the major factors is early on in the ministry I determined that God never called a man into the ministry to make him inhuman God never called a man into the ministry to neutralize his humanity and from the beginning I determined that my people would have a realistic assessment of who I was as a servant of Christ and the fact that I was able to bring the word of God to them with clarity and with the blessing of God did not mean that I was not tempted with the sins they were tempted with that I did not face the struggles they faced the scripture says we have the treasure in earthen vessels deep cracked clay pots and like an old man of God said to me he said son he was old enough to be my father he said remember this we have the treasure in earthen vessels and the treasure is never more precious than when the clay shows the treasure is precious when contrasted with the clay don't be afraid to let the clay show so I never tried to project some image of Mr. super spiritual who had no struggles who had no frustrations who

24:05 had no disappointments now I didn't make the pulpit a theater to give you a monologue on my heart you know I didn't do that but in my preaching as I even did this morning when I was talking about the simplicity of a Christ focused life I let you know that I live with cancer it's been a part of my house for four years I live with knowing this morning a son I reared to glorify God that I voted for his excommunication because of his immorality I live with that my joy is in the midst of that pain and when you are real with your people and transparent as the apostle Paul was you read Paul's letters and most modern congregations would be shocked if they got a letter from a preacher saying fighting's without fears within oh you mean Paul you get afraid yea he said I'm scared witless sometimes but in the midst of it grace is made perfect in weakness God who comforts the downcast comforted us by the coming of Titus you mean Paul you were sitting there sad he said yea and God sent Titus and I was glad I just love the earthiness the honesty and that I think has been a help because it not only keeps you from breaking down under a nervous breakdown by trying to preserve this image that isn't reality

25:34 that's horrible it would be like me now determining I'm not going to talk to you without my hands one of my friends said Al if we ever cut your hands off be like cutting off half your tongue that's who God made me that's me and for me to say well some of these you know more reserved Canadian Presbyterians will be offended if you talk like an Italian I say no they ask me to come not somebody my alter ego and me is me with all my hands so I'm going to be me and if you can't love me for me that's alright other people do and I'm not going to go home and have a pity party so I think that's been rich one of the things that over the long haul from my perspective has kept me healthy emotionally and spiritually and my people tell me all the time that's one of the things they greatly appreciate that they never feel that somehow I'm operating at a different theater from the theater in which they're operating day by day I tell the young men I say look I've been in the way almost 50 years 50 years this next winter I said do you know my struggles this morning was exactly what it was as a teenager in high school back in Stanford Connecticut am I going to get up and get my lazy body to the place where I meet God with my Bible and pray that was my struggle this morning I set the alarm clock for 6.30 I woke up at 5.30 I said Lord I set it at 6.30 feeling I needed that margin of sleep I'm going to go back to sleep with a good conscience I woke up at 10 after

27:02 6 and then the war was on 20 minutes more would that do any good no it won't do you any good you know better than that ah yes but the Lord knows your frame ah yeah the Lord knows my frame but he also knows that I'm a rationalizing sinner and you need to watch and pray you need to buffet your body and the warfare was going on now thank God in Christ I beat the devil this morning and I was out of my bed at 10 after 6 or even a bit earlier I guess I came over and got a cup of coffee so it's that reality you see and letting people know that's the reality where you live that's been one of the most I think fundamental things I think the second thing in terms of pastor flock relationships that's contributed to the longevity is you and I talked briefly about this yesterday is my understanding of what it means for Christ to give a man as a gift of a pastor teacher to a church and I regard that gift of Christ as something second only or third in line Christ giving himself to us and ourselves to him in covenant covenantal commitment the covenant of marriage and then when Christ gives a man as a gift to a people and they recognize him as Christ's gift to me the burden of proof rests on me and on the people to prove that Christ has changed his mind and that he is removing the gift he has given so I've never thought in terms of well I don't know how long I'll be with these people we'll just

28:31 have to sort of keep it open-ended anymore than my wife I haven't lived with her for 45 years saying well I'll do this goes till something better comes along no when we exchanged our vows that was it sink or swim live or die laugh or cry we're in it till either one of us dies and I feel the same way about the pastoral ministry and when your people know that they have a sense of not confidence in you but security in the relationship so that when I'm off hither and yon and people receive me like an angel from God and fall all over me back there I'm just you know plain old Pastor Martin I have people go to sleep on me and never even burp to thank me for a good spiritual meal it's the real world of a real pastorate but there is that wonderful sense that they have that oh boy Pastor Martin's off preaching to four or five thousand here is he gonna go out into a conference ministry or he's preaching at this church doesn't have a pastor is he gonna they they're not nervous any more than my wife is nervous that I'm out on the prowl after one of you women when I'm here she has settled confidence that there's one woman in my eyes in my heart and in my bed and when I'm away she's not nervous well the church is that I'm up here well is he gonna go over and is he gonna get converted to Presbyterianism and become they know we're in this so that's two things do I need to give a third can I tell you something

29:59 sure you can tell me all you want

30:03 but we'll leave that one but third thing well I think the third thing and this comes into your ministry and that is you must continue to grow in your own understanding and experience of the word of God so that the oldest most repeated truths come with freshness to your people when I have one of our saints who's been under my ministry since the mid sixties I think of one white haired single woman godly woman and I've just been preaching a series on the second coming of Christ and she's heard my preaching through whole books through first Thessalonians in the large section on the Lord's return years ago and she came to me with tears and said oh pastor it comes with such freshness from you it's like I never heard it before and you see that's what keeps your people eager and hungry and when they some of them are excessive in their praise in that they say we know you worked hard to give us what you gave us I say yeah but you pay me well I say shame on me if I don't do that and they do I try I just was in a meeting with we have the financial committee made up of the deacons and elders to lay out the budget and I tell them every year I say man please please I'm embarrassed with the salary and they say we don't hear it shut up they don't hear anymore so I say to my people you pay me well I said shame on me if I don't produce and when they know you're still you're still up there in your study

31:32 till 1030 Sunday night and they know that in terms of the stock of knowledge and the thousands of sermons you've preached you could get away with re-preaching a lot of stuff and many people wouldn't know it newer people in the church but when they know you are still seeking to push back new horizons in your understanding of the word you're constantly working on how can I be a better preacher you subject yourself to the pain of listening to your own sermons to criticize them and they see you working and they see you growing then the freshness is there and you know at times the thought of living long is not attractive to me but at times when we've come off a season like that when I say Lord it wouldn't be so bad to live to be 90 you know so I'd say those are three things that if they're not the most fundamental they certainly are very fundamental what is the place of the elders in your church life and for yourself okay and that would be under the matter of keeping in line very early in the ministry see you've got to remember I came from a background in the Salvation Army they don't even have biblical officers you don't have any baptism no Lord Supper no elders no deacons it's organized like an army you have captains lieutenants sergeant majors so my background had no ecclesiology and when God brought me to North Jersey and I started consecutive exposition with the group of people to whom I came I began to see

The Role of Elders in Church Life and Personal Accountability

33:00 well there's a biblical doctrine of the church and when we broke with the denomination in 67 the people said look we're going to disband all the officers we we've just had a traditional view of elders and deacons we've not had a biblical view of church membership we're going to disband the membership disband the officers recognize you as our teacher put bread on your table teach us what is a church what is biblical church order so for nine months I concentrated on searching the scriptures reading the older works and preaching on what is a church member what is a church what is an elder what is a deacon and I became persuaded from the scriptures that the biblical norm was a plurality and parity of elders that is each one was a shepherd to the flock and a shepherd to his fellow shepherds and though there is diversity of gift and diversity of profile I obviously have the highest profile in our church from the very beginning when we recognized two of us as elders after nine months with no elders no deacons and the rest we recognized two of us as elders I said to the man who at that time was working for old bell labs that eventually became AT&T and the rest I said Don if you and I are shepherds we've got to meet regularly to pray and talk about the sheep so we began Saturday morning every single week and that man was my shepherd and he shared in the shepherding of the flock and the people

34:28 knew every Saturday we were together they knew unless either of us swore to confidentiality in a counseling matter that any concern of any of the sheep became the concern of both shepherds and then as our eldership grew that has been the backbone of our life together in guiding the church and in my spiritual health see it's hard for people I come off in a conference and I carry this big profile and they think well you know that guy probably freelances it nobody would feel free to exhort him that's not true my fellow elders are my pastors and I'm here because this man sent a letter to my eldership requesting that I come after it was received the next elders meeting that was laid before my fellow elders and if they said look we appreciate the appeal of Pastor Ganz but for this and that reason we don't feel it's wise to go I'm submissive to my fellow elders and that's been a wonderful thing to have men who guide me care for my soul and when we sit from 7 o'clock till 10.30 it used to be to 11 and one or two of the wives got a little upset with me so we said we've got to cut it off at 10.30 but week in week out year in year out decade in decade out that meeting Thursday night every single week starts with all the elders sharing any significant interaction they've had with the members of the flock

35:56 a season of prayer in which we all pray it's not just brother so and so lead us in a word of prayer it's the entire eldership pray around one way one week around the next so we don't get in too deep of a rut and then we work through the concerns and in that setting if one of us gets a little hot under the collar speaks with a it's not uncommon to say brethren three minutes ago I spoke out of turn brother will you forgive me forgiveness extended that's the climate we have and our people know that we have that kind of interaction and accountability and that means that when we're adopting a new policy or articulating a decision when one of the elders stands and says your elders are of one mind that they know that that's not just verbal fluff that we do operate with parity as an eldership as a session and that's meant stability for the people when it's a major decision involving expenses etc we bring the deacons on board and when all 16 of us are of one mind you know it takes a pretty cocky smart aleck person to stand up and challenge that in a way that would not be unto edification so that's been a great blessing I'd like to ask you this Al you alluded to a very difficult situation in the family

Comfort for Grieving Parents of Wayward Children

37:24 with your son we have many people who have struggled like that even here today what words of counsel comfort could you give to those in general who grieve but in specifics who are grieving let's say because of a son or daughter who has turned away from the Lord well again this is not theoretical with me nor with my wife the first thing you do of course is when that happens especially I should say especially let me alter that if they've never professed faith you're much more liable to say oh Lord where did we fail that they would not even desire my Christ in our case there was a profession of faith over an extended period of time and the apparent evidence of a transformed life and a desire to openly declare that the God of my mother and father is my God and I want him but however that pans out the first question you ask is Lord is this in any way a cause and effect situation is their waywardness the fruit of our delinquency and every parent has got to honestly search his heart before God you have those many verses in Proverbs the child left to himself

38:53 brings shame to his mother the man who does not discipline his son is helping to nudge him on to hell you've got to search your heart got to be willing to sit down and look that child in the eye and say to him as I have done with my son Joel was there anything in my life inconsistency that caused you to turn away please be honest with me I want to own my sin before you before God before the Lord's people well because we've had this accountability and we periodically evaluate one another as elders over the years the patterns of my domestic life by the grace of God have been exemplary and I don't say that pridefully there are many young couples who say we didn't know what it was to be a Christian father till we saw the way you fathered your children you have been a pattern to us so our people do not think well maybe there was a second life lived at home that Joel has turned away from the things of God I have their conscience that by God's grace we walked with integrity I laid before my own fellow elders when my son apostatized I said brethren if you believe this is the fruit of my failure you must come to that decision make me a faceless man and tell me I must leave the ministry and I will do it and I left the room and I said you pray and discuss this until you resolve it before God and once you've resolved it you

40:22 be prepared to go before the congregation and thankfully they did and they told our people some of you are new you weren't here when Pastor Martin had younger children we as his pastors and this congregation have affirmed periodically that he and Mrs. Martin have walked exemplary before us as parents Joel's decision is that of the foolish son and that would be the second thing I would say for those of you parents who have children who have turned away or not embrace Christ find comfort in the Proverbs doctrine of the foolish son this doctrine that if you do what you're supposed to do your children will come to faith in Christ and you'll see it I believe is a cruel unbiblical wretched horrifying brutal doctrine and I'd rest my whole case on one verse read Isaiah chapter one God says I have brought up children and they have rebelled against me Jehovah the perfect father says I brought up children and there's no imperfection in God and don't let yourself come under bondage that somehow you must be guilty the Proverbs has a doctrine of the foolish son which lays all the blame upon the son not upon the parents it does have a doctrine of mental delinquents and the fruit and we want to make sure we don't fit there but when before God

41:50 and competent discerning people we don't fit there then we've got to take comfort from the biblical doctrine of the foolish son we must never allow our joy to be in any creature good or bad saved or unsaved our joy must be in God and we must not let our children's turning away from the things of God blackmail us into a life of joyless doubting vacillating Christian experience and then the third thing that is you must get hold of the last chapter ain't writ yet every day when my wife and I pray for our children Lord you've given them life for another day life means mercy still extended oh God have mercy we pray that way for our grandchildren so I would say the last chapter is not written don't give up hope don't give up pleading with God that he will yet magnify his grace in their restoration thank you I'd like to ask you do we have time for one more question this is it what can you say to the congregations that would help them in their relationship to their pastors oh did you all get that question put the clock back for an hour or let's all

Congregational Relationship to Pastors and the Importance of Gratitude

43:16 fast I give you a simple word of instruction next to Hebrews 13 17 that's just the appetizer obey them that have the rule over you submit to them as they that watch for your souls as those that shall give an account that they may do this with joy the doing this with joy is not the giving an account but the watching over your soul and those who are submissive to Christ and to his word they're a delight I tell someone when I've had to admonish them and they've acted like sheep I say you know it's wonderful when sheep act like sheep it's horrible when you treat them like sheep and they act like goats I don't have a goat manual I got a sheep manual and when you lay out the directives of the chief shepherd and sheep respond like sheep it's a joy so from the pastoral standpoint I think we need to encourage in our people make our task joyful by being obedient to the word and responsive to admonishment and exhortation but the second thing brethren this is biblical let him who is taught in the word communicate to him who teaches in every good thing and you know what the easiest cheapest thing is with which you can communicate good to your pastors 15 seconds at the door pastor thank you for the

44:45 labor of your preparation and your preaching my soul was fed how long did it take to say that not even 15 seconds I've got people I haven't heard that from them in 15 years now thank God they're loyal church members they give you no trouble but I think they've made a covenant with God and said oh God I'm never going to say a word that the devil could ever use to make my pastor proud and they're keeping their vow they never say a thing but what I say is maybe if you opened your mouth and communicated in this good thing of just saying thank you appropriate to yourself not fawning praise no servant of God wants fawning praise and flattery flattery is always self terminating the person who flatters you either wants something from you or wants you to be harmed by his excessive praise genuine thankfulness is a godly grace remember the 10 lepers only one return to give thanks and it may keep your pastor from a blue Monday I know my own son-in-law struggles with this there's something in the Midwest temperament that's very reserved and I think it's more Adam than Midwest but often on a Monday I know he struggles with discouragement he's poured himself out he starts his sermon preparation

46:13 Tuesday morning labors all week pours himself into his preaching and he's got people that never so much as even burp when he's done and it leaves him vulnerable you're emotionally spent and you feel like the prophet I've spent my strength for naught dear people don't assume your simple honest straightforward thank yous are either insignificant or unneeded until your pastors tell you enough is enough already thank you back off until they do that don't assume you're giving them too much alright you just may keep them from going down in the heap of discouragement or they go somewhere else and I've seen this happen and people fall all over them with gratitude and they begin to wonder maybe my people are no longer listening to me and appreciating my ministry these people do Lord could I be more used here and it's not a matter of ambition in a sinful sense but you want to know that you're being used how do we know I mean growth in grace is often imperceptible and very slow make it a point I make this a point that no one will minister to my soul to my prophet without knowing it from my lips and that means sometimes I have to write letters I listen to tapes or I read a book and I get on the phone and I call the author I say so and so I don't have time to do the scholastic work you did in that area but man you're blessing some of us trench soldiers who are in here cranking out two new

47:41 sermons a week thank you for your sanctified scholarship sometimes you can't get them on the phone you leave a message on their machine how much does it take to just say thank you thank you that's very godlike it's a very godlike trait to be grateful and thank it's part of godliness I don't mean godlike but it is part of godliness so that'd be my little speech and I'm done thank you very very much we really appreciate your candor and your openness with us I'd like to just close this time that we've had in prayer father in heaven thank you for this continuing ministry to us thank you for raising up a faithful servant who pours himself out like a drink offering preserve his life god till that hundredth year if it's your will that he might still be used in the next generation be with his wife that she might be strengthened at this time of great and debilitating pain father we we pray for Joel we pray that in the last chapters there will be a reversal of what we have heard and a transformation in heart and life and father we pray for those in our midst

49:08 who face the same suffering and pain from the defection of those they love from the faith in Jesus Christ Lord may you be merciful and gracious to us as a people may you make us to be thankful and filled with gratitude for the great and wonderful things you have done in our lives and now as we leave this place let us not leave that place of gratitude for all that you are to us we love you we worship you we thank you in Jesus name Amen