What are the Threats to the Future Health, Well– Being and Usefulness of Trinity Baptist Church?

Introduction: Framework for Discussion in a Domestic Setting

0:02 Some of you have not been in our home before, and we send a very special welcome to you. Do you all know one another? This is our overseas guest. I've been in his home.

0:13 This is Jonathan Hughes, son of Pastor Hughes, who will be ministering this Lord's Day and next Lord's Day, and then family conference. Good to have you here, Jonathan. And let's see. Christina, I think this is your first time in our home.

0:26 And your friends, may you again. Vanessa, good to have you. Anyone else first time in our home? A whole bunch of you. Welcome to all of you.

0:36 It's good to have you here. And what I thought might be profitable for discussion time is to throw open something that has been much on my heart, and obviously many of you who have attended the C.A. over the past several years know that this has been an area of increasing burden, and it has come into real focus in our working through the revision of our Constitution in the adult class, and it has really been a great pleasure to be here.

1:04 But before I put the topic on the table, I want to set a framework for how I believe it is honoring to God for males and females in an informal domestic situation to enter in equally, and for you gals not to feel at all reluctant that you're violating any biblical principles by being as vocal, and in some cases perhaps even more vocal than the men. In Acts chapter 18, in my own devotional reading recently, in my New Testament reading, brought me to that incident regarding this man Apollos in Acts 18 and verse 24. Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, an eloquent man or learned man, came to Ephesus, and he was mighty in the Scriptures. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, knowing only the baptism, and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. Now this is, in a very real sense, a lot of verbal shorthand concerning this man Apollos, coming from Alexandria, as Dr. Bob underscored in teaching this passage.

2:20 It was a center of learning. He was no doubt a very highly educated man. We would say educated in one of the most prestigious universities of the then known world, and having a university degree. He meant something more than passing courses in trivia.

2:39 But one had to develop not only his mind, but his ability to communicate what was in his mind. And so he's described as both an eloquent and a learned man, and above all else, he was a man who had a heart subject to the Word of God. He was mighty in the Scriptures. He'd been taught the truth of God, but only the truth that had been revealed up through the coming and the ministry of John the Baptist.

3:03 And when it says, knowing only the baptism of John, Apollos had not yet heard that Jesus of Nazareth had been crucified, buried, risen, the Spirit of God had been sent on the day of Pentecost, and Christ's identity as the Messiah had been validated. So what he knew was true, but it was very limited. He had a truncated message, but he was preaching what he knew, with fervor, with power, and with the blessing of God. But two individuals, and notice who is listed first, but when Priscilla, that's the wife, and Aquila, her husband, heard him, they, it doesn't say he, but they took him unto them, and the subject of expounded is still they, it's a plural verb, they expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. So in the domestic situation of the home of Aquila, there's apparently some emphasis given, to Priscilla having, if not an equal, perhaps even a leading role in instructing this eloquent, learned man more perfectly in the way of God, and he was not too stuck on himself to learn from a couple of tradesmen. The trade that Aquila was involved in was that of tent making, so here was a blue-collar worker instructing a university graduate who was already in a very high public profile,

4:30 and he's willing to even learn, and he learned from this man's wife, who obviously took a very active part in that work of instruction, and then you remember the rest of the story, that he embraced what was passed on to him by Priscilla and Aquila, and as a result of it, we read, when he was minded to pass over into Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, wrote to the disciples to receive him, and when he was come, he helped them much, and had believed through grace, for he powerfully confuted the Jews, and that publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. Now, the principle that I want to highlight is that in this informal, domestic setting, not only did you have a woman entering in equally with a man, but you had a woman instructing a man, and we are here in the domestic situation. It is not the context of the church where God clearly indicates, I suffer not a woman to speak, but to be silent in the church. She is not to teach, nor to observe authority, nor to speak over the man, but here in this domestic situation, where God has appointed me as his vice-regent to administer his rule, there sits to my left a woman that is graciously born with that rule for 39 plus years, but in this setting, it would be perfectly proper for her to take some of you young male whippersnappers,

5:52 and talk to you like the Dutch auntie, and I would sit here and smile, because... Yes.

6:01 That would be perfectly proper under the canopy of my headship in this home for my wife to enter in, and become your instructor, and I hope every one of you would have the disposition... Come on right in, you're not touching about our company tonight.

6:15 Good to see you, Abby. Oh, how are you? Can I take any of your chairs? Yeah, we'll come.

6:21 Should I get that chair out of the... Yeah, I've got one here.

6:28 Put one right up here. Yeah, so we've got one right here. That would be perfectly proper for my wife...

6:36 ...to assume the role of instructing you young men, and I hope you men would have the heart of an Apollos, though none of you would be described as eloquent and mighty in the scriptures if you don't come up to Apollos' stature, but I hope you would have Apollos' humility, and be prepared to be taught, but not only by an older woman, but by your sisters in the Lord, and knowing that you gals have the spirit of godly deference to male leadership, and we who are in leadership in this assembly greatly appreciate that, but I want you to know that we are not in the church, we are not in the context where the biblical norms for female deference to godly male leadership will be recognized obtains, and so I don't want any of you to feel at all reluctant to enter into the discussion, and at points perhaps even take what might appear to be, temporarily, leadership in that. Now if you get to where you dominate to the point where you are obnoxious, male or female, I'll pull the rein on you and say, fine, I think we've heard enough from you, now someone else has something to say, but that would go across the board genderless, alright? So if we set the framework, let me mention what I think would be helpful to discuss together,

7:55 I bounced it off Kevin briefly, and if that falls flat, I've got a backup chute to introduce something else, so I'm dependent on your willingness. I've got a willingness to contribute if this is going to be profitable. I thought it would be helpful for us as those who, in the providence of God, some of you at least, hopefully, will be part of the future backbone and life of our own assembly, and it would be good for you in the context of your own peculiar perspectives to discuss together what you perceive to be the most real dangers to the future blessing and future usefulness of the life of Trinity Church. From your standpoint, what do you think are the greatest real dangers that will undermine either the doctrinal or the practical or the useful dimensions of our life together? And then the second question that follows on from it, what can you do now, under the blessing of God, to prevent those dangers from becoming actual instruments of tearing down the work of God amongst us? So I thought those two correct questions, thoughtfully worked through, could be profitable to all of us.

9:16 So let's pray, and then we'll throw it open and see where we go. All right? Let's pray. Our Father, we are so thankful that we have the Scriptures to be the lamp unto our feet and the light to our pathway in all things, and though we do not meet in the context of the gathered church, we thank you that even in the informality of our meeting here in this home, we have the Scriptures to give light as to how we should conduct ourselves so as to please you and to minister to one another.

9:52 We do thank you for the record of this incident of what happened in the home of Priscilla and Aquila and how their interaction greatly enriched uneducated, learned, eloquent, man and made him much more useful in the work of your kingdom. We pray that the spirit of humility that was operative in the life of Apollos, that he was willing to learn from these two blue-collar workers and from a woman as well as a man, that that spirit would fill our hearts, that we may be prepared to learn from one another, to be challenged by one another. And our Father, you know the burden that is upon the heart of many of us in the leadership of the assembly. As we see our years passing so quickly and realize that should our Lord Jesus delay His coming, that we too will soon go the way of all flesh and we long to know as we would pillow our heads upon our bed for the last time that there are those who are committed by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit to carry on the torch of truth to generations yet unborn. Bless us then in our discussion together. May the Holy Spirit superimpose and contend all that we do. We pray with the psalmist that the words of our mouths and the meditation of our hearts may be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, our strength and our redeemer.

Opening the Discussion: Questions on the Table

11:17 We ask in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Take the notes if you don't mind.

11:25 I won't put down names next to the input, but just maybe things that would be helpful. So question number one, and if it slides into question number two and it flows back and forth, that's fine. But what, from your perspective, do you perceive to be the greatest threats to the future of spiritual vigor, usefulness, doctrinal integrity, holiness of life, everything that makes the Church what the Church is, in spite of all of our sins and failures? I don't think any one of us would judge other than that the Church is right now the lampstand of Christ, and that His presence is with us.

12:04 And that at least a measure of His blessing is upon us. And yet knowing that the warfare between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent is going to go on until the Lord returns, from your perspective, what do you think are the greatest threats to the future spiritual health and well-being of our assembly? And any assembly, for that matter, that's seeking to be truly biblical in our generation at this point in the life of our nation, the state of our culture, etc. So the question's on the table.

12:36 The ball's in your court. Man or female may speak first. The danger of formalism, of being caught up in duty and depending on our own discipline and not depending on the Holy Spirit, if we're not true to Christ in this world and yet we're busy with these disciplines and we rely more on our ability to do these spiritual duties and not consciously depending on the Holy Spirit to enable us to prepare us. Danger.

13:18 In fact, for myself, I need to continue to stir more love to Christ, more dependence on the Holy Spirit to help me not pat myself on the back that I'm unable to do various deeds. Is there any reason why you feel that's a particular danger that those of you associated with this assembly might face? Or do you think it's more generic? Generic.

13:44 Anyone want to pick up on that? Agree? Disagree? Maybe come at the question from a totally different perspective.

13:52 I'm sure all of us realize this, that once we become aware of the disciplines that are essential to nurturing spiritual life, both privately and corporately, and we've begun to develop some discipline in that area, the easiest thing in the world is to begin to assume that because the discipline is locked in place, the life and the power of those disciplines is present and the soul can go out with them if we're not dependent upon the Spirit of God. And so that's always the danger with respect to those matters. I'm sure we would all agree that that is the very real danger. Maybe follow up on that then, Jay.

14:31 What are the practical steps that we can take to make sure by the grace of God that we don't fall into the curse of oneness and then mistake the mere shell for the life and power of these things? Consciously pretend to be the God of Christ and confess sin, repent of our sins, and pretend wholly on His finished work and the cross. So if I hear you, you're saying that determination to have heart dealings with the person of Christ Himself and not stopping short of that. We read the Word that we might have communion with Christ.

15:15 We pray that we might have dealings with Christ. We gather that we might know Christ ministering to us in the midst of His gathered people. And to stop short of Him is the way to leave ourselves open to form ourselves. That's very helpful.

Threat One: Formalism

15:34 All right, so we want to pick up on a totally different thread of thought or amplify that. What do you think is the greatest threat? Or a bona fide threat if not the greatest? Yes.

15:47 Just one question about what we just spoke on, formalism. Because I personally have heard, you know, beware of formalism and different things like that. What would really be a good definition of what formalism is? I would see it as just acting something out without really being that in essence.

16:06 I think of my understanding, the way I use the term, if I'm using it in preaching or as I've used it in the adult class, formalism is assuming, because you're in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing, you are right. That's how I perceive the formalism. Not being concerned whether or not the end in view with those things is being realized. What is the end of having a quiet time?

16:40 Not to put a check mark on the calendar, in your quiet time check mark pencil, I had my quiet time today. What's the end of gathering, even in the informal gathering like this, gathering on the Lord's Day? What's the whole end? These are but means to bring us into fellowship with Christ, to have heart dealings with God, whether in renewal of our faith, renewal of our repentance, renewal of our commitment to one another, and formalism is simply to be in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing, utterly unconcerned whether those ends and goals are actually realized in my experience.

17:21 Matthew 15 would be a classic example of formalism. Jesus is condemning not only the fact that they were adding to the words of God and canceling scripture, but notice in quoting from the book of Isaiah, Matthew 15 in verse 7, You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people honors me with their lips, they were saying the right things in the right places, but their heart is far from it. The heart had not been engaged. They had the language of devotion, but the spirit of devotion had gone out of it.

18:04 Another passage that points in that direction would be Revelation 3 in verse 1, where the Lord speaks to the church of Sardis, I need the messenger or angel of the church in Sardis to write these things that have the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your works. You have a name that you live. Their reputation was impeccable because apparently their outward demeanor sustained their reputation.

18:32 But he said, I know something that others don't know yet. Thou art dead. Now it wasn't a total spiritual death because he goes on to say, Be watchful and establish the things that remain which were ready to die, for I have found no works of yours perfect or perfected before God. So here is a case of formalism.

18:52 They had earned a reputation for spiritual life and vigor based on activities that were indicative of that, but now the soul had gone out, the form remained, the reputation remained, but the spirit of death had come into the midst of those things. That make sense Kevin? That's the test. Yeah.

19:15 Yes, ma'am. I want to say one of the reasons why it might be particularly a struggle for us is that truly, it's such a, well it's a church that's looked to by so many other churches and people all around the world and that, like you said before, God has blessed us in so many great ways and so, it's the tendency to sort of think that because you're a part of Trinity, you're going to be blessed and you're a part of the body of Christ and even the young children, the teenagers growing up, you know, the struggle that some of us have who've grown up in the church is that, you know, we question ourselves, well, are we just simply acting the part? And so, that might be one reason why especially a possibility for us to have a problem is because we're such an unaligned church. And the thing is because we're hanging on to something that has under God had His blessing and earned a reputation for God's blessing being upon it, that just being close to it somehow is going to spill over on us. Which leads me to what I want to say.

20:29 Yes. And I think that what's recognized most about, you know, the blessing of the Trinity is received in the leadership. And I think that if there's a threat to the church or the hall, it would be a threat that we would, you know, receive leaders in the future which might not be as godly as when the things that we have now. All right.

Transition to Threat Two: The Danger of Incompetent or Wicked Leadership

20:51 So that would then move us into another area that in terms of the basic question, what are the greatest threats to the future of TBC? The danger of formalism. And I think there's been a general consensus and we've sought to identify what formalism is and why we might be particularly vulnerable to it here. And now this moves us into a second major area.

21:13 The danger of, well, how can we describe it? Of incompetent leadership. Unspiritual leadership. Lightweight leadership.

21:23 Less qualified. Less qualified leadership. You could say, in a way, inexperienced as they were, they weren't around us. I mean, since the church has started and through all these growing phases and through all these struggles that it's gone through, you know, they just walk into this situation and then they're not aware of all the different things that have gone on.

21:44 They could say, the ants come in under the baseboard. You know where they come in at. Some other person might come in and they might not notice that at all. Before you know it, they're all over the campus.

21:55 You're talking about my house, don't you think? Wonderful. I'll cut that off. Well, maybe I think, would you all agree that that is a concern?

22:06 Biblically, is there any warrant to think that that is and has been a critical matter? Can you think of any passage where the Apostle Paul, as he thought of the future of the church, that had real light and power under his ministry, was greatly blessed where he had fears about the future leadership? Acts 20? Hmm?

22:27 Acts 20? Yeah, Acts 20. Okay. 28.

22:31 All right. He's speaking. What group is he speaking to in Acts chapter 22? Tim?

22:39 He's speaking to the church. Is he speaking to the church? A select group. Look at verse 17.

22:45 I'll give you a hint. Ah, the elders of the church. Okay. He goes through, he stops at Miletus, gathers the elders.

22:53 All right. Now, what's the part that's relevant with respect to Paul's concern? In verse 28, he says, Take heed unto yourselves, speaking like he said to the elders, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departing, grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock, if among your own selves there are any who are of the same blood.

23:16 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock if among your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them. All right. So he envisions the church being threatened by, this is not just a matter of incompetent leaders, but we'd say wicked men, on the one hand, whom he describes as wolves, predators, men who look upon the flock not as the flock to be served but the flock to be devoured. And then you've got these people that are ambitious.

23:46 I can tell you that there are a lot of people in the church who call them shepherds looking for sheep. As you'll notice it says, these men will speak perverse things for what purpose? To draw away the disciples after them. They want to follow.

24:01 They're not concerned with truth. They're concerned with feeding their own ego by having a following and the only way they can get it is not by sticking to the old paths but by concocting novelty. They speak perverse things, he says, in order to draw away disciples after them. So they concoct doctrinal novelty in order to get a following.

24:22 So there's no new thing under the sun. The people are far more willing to run after the most crazy, bizarre things in the name of Christianity than they are to follow the beaten paths of truth. You shake your head and say, how can people be so gullible? When you mentioned earlier tonight, oh, you mentioned, Kevin, that the standard drink was going to be Kool-Aid.

24:46 You can't say Kool-Aid now for some of us but you can say Kool-Aid now for some of us. You can say, how can people be so stupid? Well, he came up with novelties and people just love to follow religious novelties. So there's no new thing under the sun.

25:06 So here's the threat and the danger of incompetent, perverse, unspiritual, wicked leadership, all of those terms. Here's a clear passage that indicates that the apostle recognized the importance of leadership in the church at Ephesus. Any other passages that you think that indicate that this whole matter of future leadership is a very central biblical concern? You spoke on Sunday morning in the Sunday School class about leadership and used the examples of the Old Testament for leaders in Israel and Judah.

25:40 Especially Judah when they had a good king and when they had a bad king and how the whole nation followed them. But he said in Timothy 2.2, the things you have heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. So Paul's tremendous burden that, and that was still the church at Ephesus where Timothy was laboring, that not only would Timothy maintain his integrity.

26:07 He said, I know after my departure, he says, that they would have people heaping to themselves, teachers, having itching ears for abiding in the things with the same vision and burden for the next generation and pass on what I've given to you and that you've retained against the pressure of error and seek to find faithful men, trustworthy men who will pass it on to others. So those are two more very large blocks of scripture. What you see in the history of Israel under the kings and then also remember under the judges. You see it again and again that God would give and throughout the whole book of Judges you have that pattern again and again.

26:47 Through the heel of the Philistines, God would then raise up a judge whether it was Samson or Jephthah and through them God would bring deliverance and then you'd have that motif and then there would be declension and they'd again come under military conquest and God would raise up a leader and God just all the way through the scriptures God preserves or curses his people in terms of the kind of leadership that he gives them and the kind that they want and retain. You know, the state of the Jews at the time of our Lord is the kind of leaders that they produced, accepted and tolerated the scribes and the pharisees. Many should have run those characters out of town. Instead, they laid on them burdens far beyond what God laid and they took it without a squeal. It shows the gullibility of people in religious matters and they're always perverse leaders ready to take advantage of that. But they went to tell you that God is good. It's hard for people to rise above Jesus.

Interlude and Guest Introduction

27:54 Excuse me, helps? Oh, did you turn it out there? I found it. I wonder if maybe that'll help to give a little more light.

28:03 Yeah. Does that look better? Yeah. Excuse me, Dave.

28:14 Just that it, you know, it's not easy for people to cry about their fears. Yeah. Come on in. Say something.

28:25 Yes, you may. Do you, Linda, you want to introduce your friend to us? Sure. Nathan, do you want to have a seat over here?

28:40 Sure. What we're doing is I threw out for discussion the whole question of what do the Singas here believe are the greatest threats to the future of the blessing of God upon the Trinity Church? And the second question that we've not gotten to, which is to help avoid succumbing to those dangers and those potential threats to the spiritual life and stability. And the two that have come up for discussion thus far, the first was the danger of formalism.

29:12 And we finally come up with a working definition of formalism is because you're doing the right thing at the right time in the right way in the right place, you think you're right. Whether you have any dealings with God or not, and how to avoid formalism. We have to call it lightweight, perverse, incompetent leadership. Dave said that this would be a very critical thing that there might be men who did not have the spiritual stature and vision of those who under God were at the beginnings of the Church and have guided it through its first two and a half decades of life together.

29:50 And then we were saying, well what passages indicate that the Scripture gives a lot of emphasis to this? And we went to the Acts 20 passage and it said the whole pattern in Israel and particularly in Judah when God raised up a righteous king the nation would walk with God and then a wicked king would lead the nation into wickedness and then the whole pattern under the judges and then Paul's concern that Timothy would pass on the legacy to faithful men. And then Sir Jonathan from Scotland asked if he might speak a wee word. All right, Jonathan.

Jonathan's Warning: The Danger of Traditionalism Toward a Predecessor

30:25 I think one of the biggest dangers is that the congregation can look to a man and when your time of 20 years old comes to an end and hopefully in the goodness of God another man will be provided to land with you. But the danger is too many people can say that he's not like you. They compare the new man with yourself and see differences. And Pastor Martin used to do it this way.

30:51 And he said that if you don't believe in God and you don't believe in God then you'll be just like the old man. And we always have done it this way. You can get into a tradition and a traditional mindset where we've always done it this way but a new pastor comes along and changes it. It could be a perfectly scriptural, biblical way of doing things.

31:16 And you can live in the past too much and try and always look back to the days when you were the pastor. And you're not really appreciating the man who's now in the pulpit. You're living in days gone by. And I think that can be a big change in traditionalism.

The Biblical Corrective: Loyalty to Christ, Not Leaders

31:36 Well I think it's a very helpful contribution Jonathan although Paul said sorry some follow Paul some follow Apollos I follow Christ. That was going to be my next question was what passage indicates the Spirit? And that was the passage I was going to fish for whereas I've got this one here it says the Spirit of the Father something not quite what you might believe you may be and I don't believe I am not worthy of the Spirit of the believe it because it's in the Bible not because I said it and that trying to make sure that your loyalty is primarily to Christ and not the instrument that Christ may use to bring you to an understanding of the world but here in first Corinthians 3 you remember the divisions that they were having at Corinth were occasioned by God blessing them with a multiplicity of servants of God and now they were lining up behind them chapter 1 first addresses at verse 12 now this I mean each one of you says I'm of Paul I'm of Apollos I am of Cephas others said I am of Christ well then when he comes to

33:04 chapter 3 he said wait a minute you need to understand these men are simply servants of Christ instruments in the hand of Christ but rather than being the occasion of divisiveness his summary statement is beautiful at the end of that chapter verse 21 let no one glory in men for all things are yours whether they are good or evil or good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good and good. Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death things present things to come all are yours and you are Christ and Christ is God's so if we have that mindset that in praying and looking for competent leadership we're not looking for clones of the present leadership but looking for men who fit the biblical standard meet the biblical standard and conform to the biblical criteria and not petrified to say well fidelity to the ministry of the word means it must be ministered the way this particular person ministered and lock God in to something that he's not locked himself into then we might fail to recognize the very people whom God has sent to lead us because they didn't have this or that peculiarity of personality manner style things that are all matters of indifference are not matters of biblical principle and of course one of the one of the ways again that we

34:26 tried to neutralize that is by giving as high a profile as a man's gift will warrant to as many men as God puts before you the different men who lead you in your public worship all do so with a different style they pray in the different way so that no one thinks the only proper way to pray is the way pastor Martin prays and likewise with the public ministries to have men of different style and temperament and the rest so that you don't subtly think well this is the only way or this is the best way and thereby fail to be prepared to receive those who God has equipped and fitted to give you leadership in the days to come and you've got to make a distinction then between the non negotiable biblical criteria and the negotiable flexibles that are you may have your preference that is nothing wrong I mean I say unashamed I'd far rather hear a man preach that works up a sweat and preaches from his little robe to the last strand on the top of his head not everybody likes necessarily preaching that is vigorously animated I do and I'm entitled to my likes but if I'll say I'm only listen to a man that works up a sweat and I won't be blessed through anyone else now I'm sinning against God and despising his gifts

35:46 because he may have he may have appalled who doesn't work up a sweat and there are others who like a certain style of ministry much better and if they had their way they'd rather never have a thunderclap or a drop of sweat in the preacher well they have to be careful that they don't reject the thunder in the sweat when that's how God's chosen to convey his word to them so that's a critical thing and those are matters that in the years to come with the Lord tarry's and some of us are in our grave and you're discussing the recommendation of your leaders that someone be recognized in a place of prosperity and peace and that's what I'm talking about in public ministry to remember some of these principles why am I inclined to say yes I would like this person in a place of is it because I see the biblical standards or is it because I'm attached to the secondary non of the secondary negotiable peripheral issues and that's how the enemy could float into leadership someone who really ought not to be in leadership because he was an absolute who stole the hearts of the people by his person who stole the hearts of the people by his person who stole the hearts of the people by his person who stole the hearts of the people by his personality and not by his biblically trained character and that whole incident of Absalom standing in the gate stealing the hearts of the people away from David God's appointed leader ought to be a real warning so I appreciate

Threat Three: Proxy Christianity

37:10 that Jonathan you all want to pick up on that and yes Leslie oh no I have a different point but okay anyone want to follow through on that all right then Leslie well I was thinking that Ephesians 4 where the elders are supposed to equip the saints to work in ministry yes I would think of sometimes because there's such a great deposit of gifts that we're always looking to you we're looking well you're going here you're preaching here we're doing this or doing that and we tend to forget that we're to be doing and we're to be um you know evangelizing the consciousness I think that's a danger just because we're always hearing about what you know where you're going which is right where you're all going but I tend to think maybe we can forget that we're to be doing everything in our power and I think that's a danger but how can we express that then the danger of proxy religion thinking that because we're identified in our prayers and sympathies and interests and information with what our God-given leaders are doing that somehow that automatically transfers that we're doing all we could and ought to be doing to work our little part of the vineyard that's never going to be brought forward into a place of prominence

38:37 you agree to lesson that was practical way to neutralize that nature of the text under my mind what's practical you can amongst yourselves forget the rest of the church I'm talking now about the peculiar camaraderie and interaction you have as singles at present what can you do to neutralize the danger of leaning the efforts and endeavors of your leaders and thinking because you pray for people that are actively involved in the work of the kingdom that that's all the work of the church that's all the work of the church that's all the work of the church that's all the work of the church that's all the work of the church that's all the work of the church that's all the work of the church in your hearts Christ is Lord always being ready always to give answer to every minute and a half to you the reason we might be the words and sees

39:59 and I doubt probably we caught off-guard expecting the wall they would you're a you're a you're a from a preacher or in a church center or even on a tape but someone in line at the supermarket saying a word that might get in when these defenses are otherwise down.

40:20 Okay, taking seriously then the directive of 1 Peter 3.15 that every believer is to continually have Christ set apart as Lord in his heart, standing in a posture of readiness to give an answer on every occasion that's appropriate with respect to our faith, which means we've got to be well grounded in our faith have sufficient confidence in the content of our faith that's certainly clear in the text giving a reason concerning the hope that is in it, which means then that we've got to be readers we've got to be thinkers, we've got to be reading our Bibles, reading the books that are going to ground us and establish us and we can't be, as it were holding on the coat strings of those, or the coat tails of those that are competent, hoping that somehow they'll rub off on us they won't. Another passage that I was thinking of was Hebrews chapter 10 that in conjunction that our gathering together is not only that we might render corporate worship and sit under Christ as our prophet speaking to us in and through the word by those whom he has set over us but notice verse 23 of Hebrews 10 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not for he is faithful at promise and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works, not forsaking our own assembling together

41:49 as the custom of some is but exhorting, encouraging one another, and so much the more as you see the day drawing near so the exhortation not to forsake our assembling together is couched on both sides with our responsibility to provoke one another unto love and good works and to exhort or to encourage one another so that in this setting you ought perhaps wisely and judiciously and in terms of the natural groupings that always emerge in any social context where there will be some that you'll have a greater liberty to speak more frankly and freely be asking one another is there something that this week has happened in your own life that is significant in terms of opportunity of witness, in terms of seeking to be liked sought, in the place where thoughts put you and appoint yourself a committee of one to provoke one another in this area and I think so often that we're fearful of saying well who am I, I'm such a failure who am I to ask my brother or sister well if we all take that then we have an unwritten sort of contract you no bother me, I no bother you and together we'll bother no one and there needs to be that kind of confidence that we do want to be stirred up unto love and good works and an openness and a vulnerability to one another

43:15 and if anyone then begins to feel he has a special mission from God to be everybody's exhorter it will soon become evident and somebody will have a hand on his or her shoulder and say look, I appreciate your zeal but let's temper it with a little bit of grace but I don't think that's our practical danger in this setting I think as Leslie said, in any setting where God does give the blessing of strong and multiple leadership and people have the sense of feeling secure in that leadership then there's nothing wrong with that I would like to feel my wife could testify that she feels comfortable and secure in my leadership as a husband now there's nothing wrong with that but if that makes her spiritually lazy that's the abuse of it and she feels well if I've got a question I can always ask my hubby or cousin and keeps her from digging into the word then that's an abuse of what I must do I must provide and that is strong responsible leadership in this home that it's not difficult for her to respect me, to follow me and to submit to me well in the same way in the life of the church we are in leadership we have to lead we can't be just quote facilitators standing on the sidelines occasionally nudging you saying well three degrees left three degrees right you're all doing fine you just keep up with it we've got to lead but the danger is that you can get sinfully complacent under incompetent leadership

44:43 and fail to feel the burden and responsibility of taking your own initiative both to be grounded in the things in which your leaders are seeking to impart to you and then as Leslie has underscored in seizing those opportunities God has given you to advance the kingdom in the sphere in which he's pushing you've had a lot to unlearn

Buying the Truth for Oneself: Against Second-Hand Religion

45:43 but until you've done the latter is it really yours Marilyn? I don't want to use Marilyn I've had twice of her after all these years psychoanalyze me Val alright? Marilyn will do that when she gets home she'll do that her sister is up in an intensive friending situation this summer I'm sorry Val go ahead you're making your own it's not your own but that's dangerous so we're back again to be readers and thinkers on our own and not take things on second hand reports making sure that in the language of Solomon we buy the truth for ourselves only then are we prepared not to sell it and we pay the price to buy the truth I was going to say speaking of children of church you said it before I guess I feel that that's a very imminent danger most of the members right now are members of the church and maybe came from different backgrounds and chose to sit under this ministry

47:12 that's a great stretch and they know the history and they know Christ but now I guess you see a whole crop of people who are there because not so much on their own choice because their parents go there and they're their kids and now they go and I guess three things could happen they could when they come of age and their parents don't force them to go anymore they could decide to leave the other thing that could happen is they could be saved out of the ministry and become members the third thing is they could just be somewhat moral people and stay in the church and actually the third group I see as the greatest danger is that now maybe like say us or me some of our friends maybe aren't few or passing Christians but they stay in the church and how do you interact with them it's just different it's an awkward situation it's much more exacerbated

48:41 in the Pato Baptist situation because those people are members until their outward life becomes so grossly immoral that they're cut off from the church at least with our concept of a gathered church made up of only adult confessed disciples the door for that is not quite as wide but I think one of the keys well let me ask you this what do you think is one of the ways that we can under God with his blessing keep that group from becoming unhelpfully large of people who just don't profess anything just hang on they're not members what's one of the things that might under God be used to that group from proliferating and dominating again and what will keep them uncomfortable the truth by what means

50:00 the lives of the members often make it evident that there's all the difference in the world between the one who had the final commitment to Christ alright what else that preaching that blisters their conscience doesn't assume anything that goes after the conscience and presses the claims of Christ but there's another factor that often is the key what's that you alluded to it I think you had it there at least implicitly it wasn't explicit do they expect the preacher to get in their kitchen and See, if we're just buddy-buddy with them, without ever speaking, confronting, that's right, confronting what the position is, what are you thinking, you know, why aren't you making any profession, what's your heart?

51:15 So we're talking then about those of you who are in that generation, faithfully dealing with these that sit, you never see them expressing anything of a personal relationship to Christ, that they're there, they may even put their money in the plate, and all of the holy living that constantly reminds them that there's something they don't have, and faithful preaching. If it isn't also buttressed by that kind of one-on-one dealings. So that they feel the pressure, the godly pressure of the whole assembly upon their conscience, and the principle, you remember, 1 Corinthians 14, Paul says, the unbeliever comes among you, and one has a word of prophecy, and one has a word of exhortation, etc., and it is all intelligently conveyed to him through the body. It says it's that that lays bare the thoughts of his heart, and he falling down will cry out, God, is there a truth among you? And there's something about a healthy body of God's people.

Threat Four: Non-Confrontational Christianity

52:15 So, not that the first time someone shows up, everyone pounces on a visitor and nails him to the wall, and are you converted, and when were you, and how were you? I mean, that's the quickest way to get a reputation for being a bunch of headhunters. And we had a guy once who felt that was his calling. If there was any visitor, he would nail them in the foyer when we were still meeting in the school.

52:36 So finally, we had to appoint the elders, among the two elders, to be a watchdog, and put them between him and any visitor, because he scared the liver out of them. I mean, he'd actually get them against the wall. He'd get them against the wall with the Bible, about six inches away from their face, and I mean, he just, he hadn't earned a right to confront people that way, and he certainly didn't have the grace of the pack. But, in situations where you've developed some relationship, you've shown a genuine interest, sooner or later, you've got to be willing to run the risk of bearing the reproach of Christ.

53:08 And that really is the crunch, isn't it? That we know, if we say, now look, John, I know you've been coming here for years. And you and I have had many talks about many things, but never have we spoken of the things of God. Where do you stand in your personal relationship to God's Lord?

53:26 To say that, you know you're running the risk of having this guy turn you off, break whatever level of friendship is there, and you've got to be willing to bear the reproach of Christ, and feel the rejection that comes with bearing the cross of Christ. And that could be one of the great impediments of wanting orthodox religion. With no splinters of the cross, they want it smoothed off to where there's no cross bearing, and there is no such thing. The crossless religion, with regard to how our salvation was procured, is a damning religion, and a crossless religion that has no cross for us to bear, is equally damning.

54:03 We need Christ's objective work on the cross, for the real thing, and there's also the application of the principle of willingness to bear his reproach, and to suffer his reproach. And whereas...

54:16 In the present, who knows what will happen in the next 20 years of the Lord Terry, some of you may face actual, physical, economic persecution in ways the worst some of us have got, in social optimization. Slander, we've been called names, and that letter's written about us, and in high school I had some verbal abuse, never any physical abuse, but society continues the way it is, and we are given over by God to the sins that...

54:46 We seem determined to drown ourselves in as a nation. Some of you may bear even more dimensions of persecution and suffering than some of us people, but at some level, in any situation, there's no such thing as vital Christianity without social rejection. Woe unto you when all men speak well of you, for so spake they of the false prophets, Christ said. That's a vital point, Mike, and we need to pray that God will help us.

55:16 So there would be the danger that... And of...

55:20 How can we identify that? We've got the danger of formalism, the danger of lightweight, incompetent leadership, the danger of proxy Christianity, and now we're addressing the danger of what?

55:35 Non-confrontational relations with formalists and unconverted who are still around us? Isn't that what we're talking about? See, if the Lord spares me, and some of you are still around here, in 10 years from now, I just might preach a sermon to you. If you're stuck here, you're disgusted, and it has to be, you remember it in what you're doing about it.

Time Check, Personal Vignette, and Continuation

56:06 Because the years pass very, very quickly. The older you get, the faster they go. When I sat in the doctor's office yesterday, I had to...

56:15 They discovered I had a tear in my retina, and I had laser surgery all in one day, the discovery and the surgery and all the rest. But when the nurse was telling the doctor, he was saying, now, what about this, what about this? He asked his age, he said, 61. Hearing someone say of me that I'm 61...

56:34 It was like I was in another world, I said, that's got to be somebody else, that's not me.

56:39 It's a strange thing, he said, that can't be, he said, you know, maybe it could be someone else. I said, who is that guy? Yeah, that's right, he just, he said, can't be, but it is.

56:51 Now, how are we doing time-wise, Tim? What's the normal framework that...

56:55 I'm Tim, I'm sorry, I'm looking at Tim. Kevin, where are you? As long as, what time do we have now? It's 5 after 9.

57:03 His watch is wrong. Yeah, but...

57:07 Want to keep going for a little bit? Yeah, I think we usually go until we stop. Okay. We can't argue a bunch of...

57:15 All right, not knowing how you handled it, in a sense, I'm under, you know, I'm under your authority as the least unofficial or ex-official leader, or whatever you are. I didn't want to violate the canons of propriety. Yeah, whatever's on the other side. Good.

Threat Five: The Peculiar Self-Centeredness of Singleness

57:34 All right. Some other real dangers. Not the people out there, and this, that, but right here in Trinity Church. The dangers that you're going to face, and what can we do to hit them off.

57:48 Um, I think it's interesting, you know, through church, not having... Sometimes we're a little bit isolated from the family life of the church, and it shouldn't be that way, and it doesn't have to be that way, but sometimes...

58:16 So we can tend to be self-centered in, you know, what we're doing, and we don't have anybody else that we need to care about, in the sense of... Having responsibility for other people.

58:26 Me and these other churches, what it was, was where it's so small, the churches are so small, that no one can be that way. No one, no one can hide. And, and everyone has to play a part, and everyone, um, does something in the church, and everyone cares for everyone else. And it's such a, it's just such a...

58:46 And I believe we do have... It's easy to sort of get lost in it.

58:53 And I think as singles, we need to guard against being selfish. And we need to guard against not noticing needs in the church. And using the time that we have, we have a lot of time, compared to what, that we involve ourselves in, in the church, and not...

59:15 I don't know if that falls into the category of being a danger for the whole church, but I think... Do you really think that singles have a tendency to be a little more self-centered than people who have the burden and responsibilities of marriage and family?

59:40 Nancy?

59:43 Even those that are school teachers? Now I'm gonna...

59:49 This is honesty time. How many of this room are single?

59:55 How many of you are willing to acknowledge that you seriously believe that there is a peculiar danger to be self-centered in the single state? Yeah. Yeah. It's relative.

60:10 Self-centeredness is, is part of the dynamic, uh, reality. But, no matter how self-centered a woman is, a baby crying at two in the morning shocks her into other centered orientation. Either the baby screams and wakes up the whole neighborhood, or she's gotta get herself out of bed and care for that little one. There's something about the very nature of the responsibility of being a wife and a mother or a husband and a father that ought to strike at some of the roots of selfishness.

60:41 And, uh, whereas I think it is accurate to say that not having those kinds of responsibilities, the possibility of getting comfortable in self-centeredness is greater with singleness, and it's gonna take more effort. Providence doesn't force you out of it to the same degree ordinarily. Ordinarily. So it means you've got to, and I think that's the point Nancy's making, you've got to make a more conscious effort to ask yourself, What am I doing to lay myself out in a self-denying way for someone else?

61:15 And I think of my daughter Beth right now, the child that's having such a rough time cutting teeth, that, you know, she's screaming half the night, night after night. Well, she, if there's some areas of self-centeredness there, she's having it purged out of her night after night after night. And, uh, my wife and I were just commenting, it's amazing how when those demands of motherhood kick in like that, how someone who might not naturally have a lot of physical strength, which neither of my daughters have, to see how they've risen to that challenge, not because they chose to, but because God gave them a child, and the providence of God in the circumstances of caring for that child have forced them to just go far beyond what they would have on their own. And if those external pressures are not there, then we need to seek under God to, uh, put ourselves under disciplines that will, will make us the outcome. What are some of the, what are some of the ways, Nancy, you think that that can be done practically?

62:23 I think there's a lie that we can do that with motherhood. It doesn't affect somebody who cares only of the family. They're just perceiving needs that aren't made known. I mean, what would happen to some of the couples who are living on a shoestring if they were to have a couple of singles come up and say, hey, I imagine it's a long time since you've been able to go out for an evening and just have a meal and take a walk in the park. And just have a stroll holding hands like you did at your courting days before you had all these fruits of your courting around you and all the burdens that have come with it. And, uh, have one or two of you, uh, take a little extra money and put in an envelope and say, hey, we'll get lost for the evening and we'll be glad to sit with your kids. Some of them might faint dead away.

63:43 I mean, for some people that would be a tremendous benediction because they'd love to get away for an evening but they can neither afford a babysitter nor a father. They can't afford to go out and spend thirty-five, thirty-thirty-five bucks for a meal and a dip at a moderate restaurant. And perhaps in many other ways, I mean, I just took that off the top of my head because that would certainly be one that would apply to us two old duffers here. I didn't want anyone to think what I was suggesting.

64:12 We were feathering our own nest here. Some other things that come to your mind as practical suggestions? I was thinking of, uh, 1 Corinthians 15, 58. Uh, Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain, O Lord.

64:41 And I think even within this one verse, uh, steadfast, unmovable, always abounding. Now, to some people, always abounding, for me, breaking out of selfishness or whatever, that's within all of us, is one thing I find helpful in this is to commit yourself possibly to some part of the church, whatever gifts the Lord gives you, to have that duty or that constant responsibility and put yourself into that. But also, not to get discouraged over time because for as much as you know, it's not in vain. Try to commit yourself to some, if you're a person, take myself as a single man, who I don't have any responsibility for any other people in my house. I mean, Mrs. Nichols is downstairs, and she doesn't ask for life. But, um, I find that for a single person, if you do not have that responsibility waiting for you when you get home or waiting for you at any time that you need, it's not, it's not there waiting for you as a single person, you have to go out and look for it.

65:49 Whereas a married man can come home to plenty of, maybe problems, problems, whatever. For a single man, you might actually have to go out and cautiously, without being a busybody or whatever, or prying into where you don't belong, but to commit yourself to something that constantly breaks you out of that. You know, this week, you have to do this. Yeah, whether you feel like it or not, the same way that man that comes home from work, whether he feels like it or not, he knows he's got to gather his family out, gather his family after supper, and lead them in the study of the word of God and in prayer, and seek to have meaningful, interesting family worship.

Practical Antidotes: Ministering to Widows and Young Families

66:29 If he were left to his impulses, he might do it once a week. But when his conscience is bound by the circumstances of duty, and I think Kevin's point is a good one, and that's one of the things the deacons were going after in this recent letter that they sent to all the men, how many of you are willing to commit yourself to a specific responsibility or a specific number of hours? And I would say, at the practical level, at any time that any one of you becomes convinced that I need the pressure of some kind of ethical commitment to get my self-life off dead center and my tendency to waste time or be self-indulgent, go to the deacons and say, look, I'd like to know, what is there out there that I can do that gives me some sense of moral commitment? We've got widows who would welcome having someone just come and spending an evening and just chatting with them, praying with them. Some of you who've taken your trips abroad, sitting down with them and going over the pictures and all the things that will help fill up the emptiness that comes when they've lost a spouse. I think I may have mentioned in the prayer meeting when my wife went to be with her mother back a few weeks ago, right where Brian is sitting is where we sit at night to have our devotions together.

67:49 And when she left and I hadn't yet gone to the conference, I had four nights here by myself, I said, I'm going to carry on our devotional time just as though she were sitting next to me with her arm locked in mine and I read out loud from William Jay and prayed out loud. Well, it gave me an empathy for the widows and the widowers such as I had never had before. I wanted to get on the phone and call every widower and every widow and say, I believe, I feel at a level now that I've never felt before. What would it be like should the Lord take my wife?

68:21 And just that simple little ritual that's a part of our life to suddenly have it radically altered and that ache is there. And some of you could minister, some of you men could minister to the men and there'd be a proper sense with some of the older widows where they would welcome having a male to come in and to, just to talk with them, to pray with them. So, don't be afraid. Just rule out avenues.

68:50 You seek to be creative in this matter of how you could minister to them. Yes, Your Majesty. May the Lord be with you. We have had, actually the Word of God doesn't seem to make it clear that God should rule on anything but men.

69:31 Because we have had couples who get married not only with each other and we have families, not all, who are so fascinated with their children and so want them to their own fascination with those children and with their family structure that they, still, do not go out with them. So, now is the time to begin to train yourself and, basically, I believe you are going to be men. You are a man. Thank you.

70:10 Though an opportunity here and there may come up, it's not going to be alone in you to be a servant when you are married. Let's hope. And when it's there, you see, it doesn't stop. We've commented as we've grown older in this neighborhood we've seen the families whose kids were the age of ours.

70:35 Some of them weren't even born when we moved here in 1967. And now that their nest is empty we've contrasted our lives. A couple across the way, the man's retired. He literally spends seven days a week puttering around his house and his garden.

70:54 He's not lazy. He's always doing something. But his world is proscribed by the dimensions of his lot. And his kids, who will be extended family, they come back for a family get-together.

71:10 But absolutely wrapped up in themselves. And then to the other side, the woman was widowed. Her husband died of lung cancer. He was a chain smoker.

71:20 And she's now living with another man. She had an engagement ring on, showed it to us. But he's moved in. They're not even married.

71:28 And the emptiness, they just live for themselves. They loll around the pool and drink their mixed drinks with their outdoor bar. And we thought, what a miserable existence. They really think they've come to the best period in their lives now.

71:45 The nest is empty. The kids are gone. We can do what we've always wanted to do. But we thought, what a cursing, miserable, hollow existence.

71:53 And that's been a real reminder to us that we've found now the nest is empty. We have more to do now than we've ever had to do. And all the nurturing and the self-giving, the self-giving of a mother then carries over if God gives you any of your extended family in the area in the role of the grandmother and the grandfather. So that's a vital principle that my wife has just underscored.

72:15 There's no magical threshold that you cross by entering a new set of circumstances or a new relationship, i.e., marriage, children. If you're fundamentally not denying yourself and living for Christ and for others in your present circumstances, you won't simply because the circumstances change.

Threat Six: Lack of Qualified Diaconal Leadership

72:34 Well, you've identified, what, five practical dangers? The danger of formalism, lightweight, incompetent leadership, proxy Christianity, non-confrontational Christianity, the peculiar self-centeredness of singleness. Any other major threats to the future spiritual health and well-being of the church that you're presently either a part of, formally or informally, or with whom you're associated or with which you're associated? We discussed earlier the importance of having biblical, qualified, elder leadership in the church. But could it be a danger of us having a lack of men in the future to assume the diaconal type responsibilities in our church where you would have men, deacons, who would meet the qualifications of deacons, the type of dedication, because I know some of the men that I've met, some of the men that I respect, well, we know the deacons, we know our deacons,

73:53 but to see that type of men, man, willing to commit himself to his family, to commit himself to his church, all out of commitment to Christ, but what if we come to a point where we have that lack of aggressive, non-elder type leadership in our church in the future? What type of danger could that pose to a church structure? Are you asking the question of me? Yes, yes.

74:24 Well, yes, I am. Well, obviously, we would end up then with a situation that produced the diaconate in the first place. You have elders leaving their God-given priorities to have to do things that are noble in themselves. Remember in Acts 6, caring for the widows is part of pure religion, according to James 1.

74:44 But they said it's not fitting that we should forsake the word of God to serve tables. And if you have godly, competent elders, rather than have those things undone, or left undone, they would then step in and do them, and the result would be an undermining of the spiritual vigor and stability of the church. And I think one of the most practical ways to avoid that is to take the standard both for elder and deacon. It would be a fascinating study for any one of you young men.

75:18 And to go through the Scriptures and just with a concordance. You don't need to know any Greek or Hebrew. Take the standard of what an elder and a deacon must be and go through and look up the usages of those words. And you'll find that with the absence of the requirement of apt to teach, nothing is set in the standard for an elder or deacon that is not found elsewhere in the New Testament as a grace, as a virtue, that God enjoins upon all Christians, male and female, and in some settings, in particular, of men, so that those are things that you ought to be pursuing simply as a Christian man, irrespective of whether or not you ever came into the place of the office of deacon or elder. So in that sense, God does not accept the second-class standard of practical, manifest godliness, but he lays that upon all of us, and that we ought to pursue those things, the difference being a man who's going to be an officer who must have attained to a modicum of all of those, all ought to pursue those graces. Deacons and elders must have attained to some degree of manifest competence, and that's the only difference. So if you had a whole church full of men and women who took the virtues that are listed as requirements for leadership

76:47 and said, by the grace of God, I must have those graces for the glory of Christ and for the credibility of the cause of Christ, then surely, out of that, there would be no lack of those who rose to the top and manifested the gifts that were necessary for those offices. Now something you haven't mentioned that I believe is a real danger, I'm hoping someone will mention it. Tim? I think this is what you're talking about.

Final Threat: Unwise Marriage by Singles

77:26 A thought came across my mind as far as the dangers to the church that we as singles are prone to, and there's a danger in the loneliness that one may feel as a single to get involved in what becomes a poor marriage, choosing poor marriage partners just for the sake of getting married and getting on with your life, as I've heard some people say. And I think it was Pastor Blaise a year, maybe two years ago said, don't marry someone just because they're gay. And apparently he has good reason to say that, and there are difficulties that you have alluded to within marriages within our own church. So we as singles being on this side of marriage need to be careful not to become one of those sores to the church. So the danger would be then, unwise...