Nature and Authority of Congregational Vote

Announcements and Book Recommendations

0:02 This adult Sunday school class was held on August 17, 1986 at the Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey.

0:14 Now, while others are finding their seats, there are two announcements that I want to make before we go into our lesson material. First of all, a note from Pastor Bob Martin, who will be taking over the leadership of this class again next week. You are asked, please, to read through the book of Hebrews carefully in preparation for renewing our studies in that epistle next Lord's Day. The first lesson will be a review of the previous study.

0:48 So if you will, read through the entire book of Hebrews to try to get a feel again for the overall content, and then come prepared with your notebooks and also with the outlines that have been prepared and that most of you have prepared. For any of you who have joined our fellowship or begun attending since those outlines were made available in the past, new or additional copies will be available for you when you come to class next Lord's Day. And then I want to commend two books to you. When we come across books that would be of particular help for the Lord's people, we try from time to time to recommend them, and they are available in our books, There is an excellent little book on Bible doctrine explained for children, and it really is a child's systematic theology. It follows the outline of the standard systematic theology books. It starts with God, the Bible, creation, man, the person of Christ, the Holy Spirit, election, redemption, the resurrection, the new birth, sanctification, providence. eternal safety, and last things.

2:05 So it starts with the doctrine of theology, God proper, and it ends with eschatology. And to give you a little idea of how almost every chapter is introduced with a very interesting little anecdote or story to catch the ear of children, and I would say probably from about ages seven or eight onward this book would be appropriate. The chapter on redemption begins this way. Years ago, in a far-off land, a number of beautiful birds were for sale.

2:38 From the large cage where they were kept, they tried to escape, but they were unable to do so. One day, along came a distinguished-looking man. He asked how much the birds cost. Then, to everyone's astonishment, he said he wished to buy them all.

2:54 But the people were more amazed when, having paid the price, he opened the cage door, and let them all fly away. He said, I was once in prison. That is redemption. Redemption means to set free by paying a price.

3:16 And then he goes on to open up the doctrine. So, what's your appetite to read it, doesn't it? All right. I highly recommend this by a strict Baptist pastor in England.

3:28 And then, what I feel is the finest, small work, or even large work, on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, addressing not only the general doctrine of the Holy Spirit, but, in particular, some of the burning issues of our day, such as tongues and prophecy in relationship to the gifts of the Spirit, the accusation that if we do not expect and cultivate the gifts of prophecy and tongues, we are dead-letter churches, we are not truly charismatic churches in the biblical sense, Professor Donald MacLeod, in this excellent work, The Spirit of Promise, takes on those issues head-on. And his chapter on being led by the Spirit is nothing short of masterful, and I do not use that term lightly or frequently. And his chapter on being filled with the Spirit is equally masterful. And this, for any serious person, it's not a book for theologians. Most of the articles originally appeared as editorials, in the denominational magazine of which Professor MacLeod is editor, called the Monthly Record, the official organ of the Free Church of Scotland.

Prayer and Welcome to International Visitors

4:40 And this is the Donald MacLeod for whom we regularly pray, when we pray for our Presbyterian brethren. All right, with that announcement and those two book reviews behind us, let us pause again and quiet our hearts before God and ask His help, as we take up our lesson this morning. Our Father, we thank you, that once again we have witnessed your mighty power, even the frightening aspects of your fury that can be unleashed in the opening up of clouds, and we worship you for your majesty in the storm. We bow before you as the God who is full of majesty and power. Thank you for your faithfulness in watering the earth. Thank you above all that you in love, have bought us and set us free. Free now to be your loving bond slaves, to do your will.

5:44 We ask then that you will instruct our minds concerning your will, as it is revealed in Scripture, and that out of love to you and to your Son, we may find ourselves running in the way of your commandments. Sanctify our study together. Be with the children downstairs, we pray, especially in the midst of the disruption of being assigned to new classes and to new surroundings. Give special grace to each of the teachers that in the midst of these new factors, your word may yet come with grace and with power.

6:23 We ask in Jesus' name. Amen. Now it's a delight to look out and see the very real international congregation this morning. We're always a multi-racial, multi-ethnic congregation, but not always an international congregation.

Review of Church Polity and Elder Rule vs. Congregationalism

6:43 And it's a joy to have our brother Lex Evitt with us from out in Kansas by way of South Africa, and our brother Amresh and his wife from Trinidad. And if anyone else is here as an international visitor, I see some other faces that are new to me, and I don't know whether you're national or international, but you're welcome wherever you come from. What I propose to do this morning, is briefly to review what we have covered in these last couple of lessons, and then hopefully to conclude the subject we've been examining. For the sake of those visiting with us, some months ago we completed a study in the London Confession of Faith of 1689, which is the official confessional standard of this church, a confession that has been central in Baptist life historically. The first Baptist association in the United States convened in the mid-1700s, adopted that confession as its confession, and it was called the Philadelphia Confession of Faith. It then underwent a sort of a summary, became the New Hampshire Confession of Faith, and in order to sharpen our understanding of precisely what we understand the Bible to teach on pivotal matters, we engaged in a study of some 30 or 32 lessons, I believe it was, on that confession. Following that, your elders deemed it wise

8:08 that we should study our church constitution, which is a statement of our polity, or how we agree to walk together as the people of God. And in the light of a passage such as Colossians 2.6, a church walking in biblical order is no little part of its glory. Paul said he joyed when he beheld the order as well as the steadfastness of the Colossian church, which remains still in its faith and obedience to Christ.

8:39 Well, having completed that study, I felt it was necessary to go back and focus upon one very fundamental issue that was brought up again and again in the course of the study on our constitution, and that is the precise difference between a congregation that operates by classic congregationalism as the form of its government and rule, under rule by elder. All the way through our Constitution, the term elder appears on almost every page and is evident that our understanding of the word of God is such that we believe scripture teaches that the church is to be governed by the rule of elders and not by the common consent of the congregation. So that our thinking might be clear on the matter, so that we might be immunized against the spirit of individualism that is so prevalent in our day, and so that we who lead may not overreact and end up with a tyrannical or a despotical rule as elders, we have considered several lines of thought from the word of God. First of all, we considered the essential difference between congregationalism and rule by elder. In both the

10:04 forms of church government, it is confessed that Jesus Christ alone is the supreme head and lawgiver in his church. Secondly, it is confessed by both groups that Jesus Christ governs by his word and his spirit, giving grace to understand and apply the word to the congregation. But it is at this point that the divergence comes. A great wall of separation. In congregationalism, the view is that every individual within the church is governed by Christ through the word when in his own conscience he discerns the word and consents in conjunction with his brethren to a given course of action, so that basically everything is determined in terms of the patterns of church life by congregational vote. And even though there may be a pastor and beacons, or more scripturally, there may be pastors, elders, they are simply the ones who introduce a proposal, and if the congregation approves, they implement. They are introducers and implementers, but they are not rulers,

11:25 governors, leaders, shepherds in the truest biblical sense. Whereas in the biblical doctrine as understood by the church, there is no such thing as a church. There is no such thing as a church. It is something equivalent, classically, of a world ruled by an elder.

11:37 Jesus Christ, who governs his church by his word and his spirit, has indicated that there should be a body of man within each church, called elders, pastors, bishops, overseers, shepherds, teachers, etc. . It is thought that another , congregation rules theётas with this spirit in hadiths,ھuboth, it is long in stanza, as if these sisters were погroms within both the instruction ego and tradition throughout history. But they have changed for their value through spiritual centuries. In the Bible it is found that chacos werewers, the will of Jesus Christ. And therefore the church is not a democratic society. It is an autocracy in which Jesus Christ himself is the supreme governor, but he administers his government by inferior magistrates who exercise rule according to his word. Then having looked at the essential difference between congregational rule and rule by elder, we then went on to consider the fact that since there is bona fide rule, obey them that have the rule over you. Exercise the oversight, Peter says to the elders. Paul says to the elders in Ephesus

Dangers of Elder Tyranny and Congregational Anarchy

12:47 or of Ephesus in Acts 20, take heed to the flock, to shepherd the flock. Obviously if there is Christ-given authority to rule in the church, that authority is liable to abuse because of the remaining sin within the hearts of elders. And so then we contemplated six of the major ways in which the authority of elders has been and is in this day abused. And that authority is abused when elders rule in an arrogant, proud, overbearing spirit and demeanor, 1 Peter 5, lording it over God's heritage, when they extend their rule into areas of Christian liberty and bind consciences where God has not found them by his word. There are elders who actually impose on women that their dresses must be a certain length, the hairstyle of men must be a certain way, they must not go here or do this. Matters where the word of God is utterly silent, and matters that do not pertain to an extra-church situation, such as a school or the military, where certain rules are properly made with regard to dress and hairstyle. But within the church of Christ, there is a certain rule in which elders have no warrant to bind consciences beyond the word of God.

14:09 Thirdly, they abuse their authority when they resent any gracious questioning of their interpretation of Scripture or any policy enacted. If anyone should come and say, Pastor, I didn't quite see what you took out of that text, would you mind going over with me how you established that principle? Who are you to question me, the bishop? You see, well, that spirit is utterly foreign to the very spirit of Christ that we'll see in our exposition in Mark, when the disciples came to the Lord with a problem of how to fit some puzzles together in the prophetic scheme, and said, How do the scribes say that Elias must first come?

14:48 Jesus didn't say, Wait a minute, who are you to be? No, he took their questions seriously and responded in a gracious and in a helpful manner. Fourthly, elders abuse their authority when they regard noncompliance with their conscience. Fourthly, elders use counsel and advice as rebellion against biblical rule and biblical order. In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul makes a difference between clear commandments of the Lord and holy or sanctified counsel. And often elders are asked to give counsel, but counsel is not divine mandate. Counsel involves matters of judgment, and when elders are so sensitive that anyone who doesn't take their counsel is looked upon as a villain, they are not a rebel, then you have a spirit of bondage in a congregation. Fifthly, when elders demand a degree of loyalty which cancels the loyalties and obligations of other God-ordained relationships, they are guilty of tyranny. When elders come between wives and their obligations to their

15:53 husbands or vice versa, children and their parents, they are exercising a form of tyranny. And finally, when they regard disagreements in judgment, they are guilty of tyranny. And finally, when they regard judgments as disloyalty and rebellion, they are guilty of disloyalty. You see, it is perfectly right for an individual church member in an issue brought before the congregation as an administrative decision to say, I do not judge that that was the wisest course of action, but then out of principle to submit. And submission is never more keenly tested than in a context where one is obligated to submit to one over him, and he does so or she does so, even though there is no such thing as submission. And There is a differing judgment as to the wisdom of that decision. That's what every wife understands very soon into a God-structured marriage. There are times when you're convinced your husband is dead wrong, but you'd be dead wrong if you didn't do what he told you, so long as it is not a request to violate a clear precept of the word of God.

16:55 Well, these then are the ways the authority of elders can be abused. However, traditionally and biblically, congregations can refuse to render to elders the proper submission required in Scripture. And so where you have the tyranny of elders on the one hand, the church has been and is still plagued with the anarchy of congregations. And how is that anarchy most frequently manifested?

17:25 We looked at three lines of evidence. Number one, demanding full disclosure. Disclosure of the whole decision-making process before consenting to the decision of the elders. The sheep have no right to demand of their shepherds a full disclosure of the decision-making process which led them to believe that such and such pastures were best for them.

17:49 For example, when we as elders decided that we ought to teach the Confession and teach the Constitution, we gave you some reasons, but we were under no obligation. To disclose. To disclose to you the full spectrum of what may be in some cases literally dozens of hours of deliberation. We're under no such obligation.

18:11 Nothing from the Word of God can prove that elders are under obligation to disclose the full spectrum of the decision-making process. And when you demand that in your heart, you're demanding something for which you have no warrant in the Word of God. It's just that simple. It's just that plain.

18:30 Secondly, when congregations manifest a skepticism which reads into information withheld the worst of motives. We saw in Proverbs 12.23 that it's the wise man that often withholds information. Wisdom demands the protection of the flock at times.

18:53 However, when information is withheld, so often people are ready to read into it a Nixon cover-up rather than a gracious response. Restraint. And then the third manifestation of congregational anarchy is when the congregation makes interrogations which assume either incompetence or bad motives in what the elders are proposing to the congregation. Well, that's as far as we got in two hours of study together.

The Precise Nature and Authority of Congregational Vote: Office Bearers

19:24 Now we come this morning to what is perhaps one of the most difficult things to isolate and precisely to define, and that is, this is category number four. We looked at the difference between rule by elder and rule by congregation. We looked at the dangers of the abuse of eldership authority. Thirdly, the dangers of congregational anarchy.

19:47 Now our fourth division of thought is this. The precise nature and authority of congregational vote. The precise nature and authority of congregational vote. We've already said in a previous study that there are at least two examples in the Word of God that are very clear where congregational suffrage or vote eliciting some kind of a discernible response from the congregation is clearly the will of God in the case of the recognition of office bearers and in the case of church discipline.

20:27 Matthew 18, 1 Corinthians chapter 5, Acts 14, 23, and by inference, 1 Timothy 3, and Titus chapter 1. Now I want to give you three heads under this fourth division this morning. Under the precise nature and authority of congregational vote, a congregational vote is category number one. It is the corporate recognition and grateful acceptance of the prior activity of Christ in the case of office bearers.

21:07 All right? Let me give that to you again. I tried to simplify it, and every time I did, I wasn't satisfied with the mini version, so I've got to give you the maxi version. All right?

21:16 When a congregation is called upon to express its mind with regard to whether or not Mr. X should be recognized as an elder or a deacon, what is it doing by its vote? Well, I'm stating it this way. It is the corporate recognition, that is, the recognition by the body of God's people of the prior activity of Christ.

21:54 In other words, before it ever cast its vote, it's the recognition Jesus Christ has done something. He has furnished this man with the gifts and graces necessary for his office of an elder or a deacon. And by our common suffrage, we are recognizing and gratefully accepting the prior work of Jesus Christ in furnishing this man and in giving him to us. We are not making him an elder or a deacon.

22:29 That is the prerogative of the exalted Christ. This is why Ephesians 4, says, verses, well, let's look at the passage, verse 10 and following, that the exalted Christ, from his posture of exaltation far above all things,

22:51 is engaged in a work of giving gifts to his church, verse 11, and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers. He gives them. Well, obviously, before he gives them, he equips and furnishes them. Paul says he has made us able ministers of the new covenant so that when an elder explicitly taught in Acts 20, and we can say by inference, the diaconal office, when an elder is deposited in the church, ultimately, who has made that deposit?

23:32 It is Jesus Christ, Ephesians 4, by the activity of the Holy Spirit, Acts 20 and verse 28. Let's notice that text, another pivotal text, if we are to think biblically concerning this whole matter. Acts chapter 20 and verse 28. As Paul now charges the elders or the pastors, and we know he's speaking to them, according to verse 17 of that chapter, he called to him the elders of the church, and when they were come to him, he said to them, speaking to the elders, verse 28 now, take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock in which the congregation has made you overseers. No. In which a bishop gave you orders and made you overseers. No.

24:28 In which the presbytery has made you overseers. No. No human agency is mentioned. It's the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.

24:42 So when we bring Ephesians 4 and Acts 20 together, what do we have in terms of a congregational, quote, vote with respect to the proposal that a given man be recognized as an office bearer? We have what I have called our corporate recognition and grateful acceptance of the prior activity of Jesus. Of Jesus Christ in granting this one as a gift to his church. Do you see that?

25:17 Do you see that? All right, now maybe that will help you to understand why in the written ballots that we distribute, those of you who have been here for a while will remember at least the substance of the wording. Having considered the life and gifts of Mr. X in the light of the word of God for Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit work by and with and through the world I do or do not recognize Mr. X as a gift of Christ to serve in Trinity Church. We try to word even the ballot to recognize we are not making a thing. We are either recognizing and accepting or non-recognition and non-acceptance based upon solid biblical data. All right?

The Precise Nature and Authority of Congregational Vote: Church Discipline

26:11 Now then, secondly,

26:15 in the case of church discipline congregational vote is something a little different. And this is how I'm describing it. Congregational vote is corporate submission to and implementation of the presently revealed will of Christ. Now with regard to church discipline a congregational vote is different from what it is in the case of recognizing a church officer.

26:49 Your elders come before you and in the person of one of their spokesmen they inform the congregation that let's pick on Mr. X again Mr. X has been discovered in such and such a course of sin and that after due admonition there's been no indication of repentance maybe a period of censure has gone still no repentance but still no repentance. And the basic patterns of Matthew 18 have been followed or in the case of 1 Corinthians 5 scandalous sin has been uncovered and there needs to be immediate radical action and 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18 do not follow the same what we would call steps or procedures. Now then, when the elders come and propose to the congregation that in the light of the word of God Mr. X's condition is such that we no longer have the right to have any biblical warrant to regard him as a brother. Coming into the assembly there was the acceptance of him as one whose lifestyle and confession gave us biblical grounds to believe he was a brother.

28:01 We never said we could read his heart. Elders in the congregation never professed to have ability to read the heart. But in the light of the word of God we have reason to accept him as a brother beloved in the Lord. Now, when the lifestyle is so inconsistent with that profession according to the word of God according to scripture the elders will propose then that the congregation act in the excision of this man from its ranks as a living member in that body its exclusion if we think of it as a family.

28:34 Matthew 18 says tell it to the church and if he hear not the church let him be unto thee as a heathen and publican. And then in 1 Corinthians 5 which is even more clear the apostle Paul writes and says after describing this horrible sin of unnatural sexual union between a man and his stepmother most likely he says in verse 3 1 Corinthians 5 I verily being absent in body but present in spirit have already as though I were present judged him that it so wrought this thing. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in his name in his authority under his rule and government by his word you being gathered together and by my spirit with the power the authority of Christ deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Verse 7 purge out the old leaven. Verse 13 them that are without God Jesus put away the wicked man from among yourselves. Well when the elders propose on the basis of as much evidence as they feel it is discreet to disclose to the congregation enough that it can carry the judgment

30:03 of any reasonable person that Mr. X no longer has biblical grounds to call himself a Christian we no longer have biblical grounds to regard him as a Christian what are they proposing when they say in the light of these things we are recommending that he be excommunicated from the church this is what they are asking you to do to render a corporate submission to the presently revealed will of Jesus Christ that's what they are asking for the will of Christ in scripture is that he be cast out that he be treated as a heathen and publican and so they are calling upon you in this situation to render corporate submission to and implementation of the presently revealed will of Christ and that's why again some of you will remember that very language has been used in cases of radical discipline here is the situation here is the word of God what will you the people of God do with Christ will revealed in his word you see that's what the issue is we are then saying as a body who professes fast subjection to Christ we will obey Jesus Christ in this specific as painful and as grievous as it is knowing that left to ourselves we could be

31:31 Mr. X and with a view that this will awaken him and bring him back to repentance it is a gracious compassionate humble act but it is an act of submission and implementation of the presently revealed will of Jesus Christ with regard to the sinning brother or sister do you see that we'll have time for questions today but I want you to see the whole picture and then we'll integrate the questions now thirdly there is a category where you only have some inferences in the Bible with regard to congregational voting on anything other than office bearers and discipline I left out I gave out the challenge a few weeks ago and it was a sincere challenge if any of you found any other place in the New Testament where congregational suffrage or vote was explicitly enacted sought implemented in the New Testament other than office bearers and discipline that I would appreciate if you'd bring that text to my attention because apart from a few other what we would call allusions there was a brother who was chosen by the churches to help in the matter of the collection for the poor saints at Judea apart from a few allusions like that to my knowledge there is no explicit testimony of apostolic precept or precedent which indicates

The Precise Nature and Authority of Congregational Vote: Administrative Decisions

33:00 the necessity let alone the practice of a congregational vote when the secretary wants to buy a new box of rubber bands or when the elders deem that new personnel are needed or when the deacons in conjunction with their communication with and submission with the elders judge that an addition is needed on a church building where in scripture is there any indication that the congregation must give its almighty imprimatur upon the leadership of its God appointed leaders it simply is not there and if we claim to be obedient to the word of God then we must be sensitive to that however however there is a third case where what our confession would call the general principles of the word of God and the light of nature some things concerning the government and worship of the church in which we look to the general principles of scripture and to the light of nature and to Christian prudence it dictates that there is a third category in which a congregational vote many times is the part of wisdom and graciousness and it is in the case of what I'm calling seeking the corporate consent to and support of an administrative

34:29 decision by the elders seeking the corporate consent to and support of an administrative decision by the elders alright let's go back to the congregation with all of its members now the elders come before you in the person of the one of their number who is chosen to lay out the proposition and what they're doing is this under the headship of Christ and in their ongoing searching of the word of God and prayer and dependence upon the Holy Spirit they've come to a conviction that it is their duty to guide the congregation into this particular path of duty or into this particular direction or activity with every one to call now they have every right simply to stand before the congregation and say having sought the mind of God in the word of God and having been brought either to one mind if the issue warrants total unanimity it's of such magnitude that they dare not go ahead without total unanimity sometimes they may proceed with one or two of their number saying well brethren I have no scriptural conviction against that course I don't believe it's the wisest but I gladly submit to your majority mind in the matter in either case

35:58 the elders would have every right to say to the people here is a direction in which we are moving in obedience to the word of God and let the issue rest however it is in the interest both of the hearty and joyful compliance of the people of God as well as an affirmation of the graciousness of the rule of the elders to lay out as much as is necessary to secure from the people of God what I have called their corporate consent to and support of this particular direction in which the elders believe the congregation ought to go and so what we have done over the years and I trust will continue to do is to come before you and say we have made such a decision however before we actually implement it we would like to know that we implement it with your hearty consent and your unreserved support alright you see the parallel now with a wise husband who is appointed to govern the household according to the word of God hmm anyone here know who is appointed to govern the household according to the word of God if you think you know raise your hand and clap alright alright BB knows alright the husband

37:24 our brother Belton is affectionately called BB by those who know him and stated we have gotten this so much in the elders meeting the people who have been in your bible study they let it slip out Belton so you will forgive me I let it slip out alright our brother Belton Brevard whence the nickname BB I hope I don't live to regret that I let the cat out of the bag Belton but the husband that's right he is appointed to govern the household therefore the burden of wrestling with the word of God as it involves the household and the household impinges upon the life of the household essentially the buck stops with him now if he is a wise husband he will do several things he will incorporate his wife's brain and spirit and sensitivity and aesthetics into his decision making process she is a helper answering to his need so that means he needs more brain than he has got in his own head to make wise decisions isn't that what God said to Adam it is not good for the man to be alone I will make a helper answering to his need what did he make of it what did he make just a beautiful robot he made a woman whose head holds as much gray matter as his do you know what God is doing he is both glorifying and humbling Adam I will make her for you that is your glory but what I make is something that has got brains that means it is humbling Adam you want to consult with your wife as you lay out that next plot in the garden take her into your council and say honey what do you think about I think we ought to put

38:53 the petunias there and cut back the ivy a little bit there isn't that what God did put him in the garden to dress it and to keep it well if he is really regarding her as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh he will incorporate her thinking her sensitivities into the decision making process well in the same way elders may dip in to the congregation and we often do people who are not office bearers and yet we see men or women whose wisdom and sensitivity in a given area might be helpful to us we dip in and we lock in and get a read out and we get a read out in the decision making process we are not obligated yet by wisdom we are there is no specific mandate to do that but recognizing that gifts of wisdom and insight reside in the hearts of God's people in varying levels then when the decision is made a wise father will then come before his family his wife or his wife and his children and seek to explain the rationale for that decision so that as they move in this direction as a family he knows they move with the consent and the hearty enthusiastic support of the whole family now suppose the wife gets bitter and digs her heels in and the kids follow the pattern of the mama and get bratty now his mettle as a leader will be tested if he is convinced that the path

40:23 is biblical then he is prepared if it is an issue of ethical and moral moral decision to stand his ground and if necessary have his wife and his kids against him Matthew chapter 10 I came not to bring peace but a sword that's what my bible says now if it's not an ethical and moral issue that demands immediate action what will he do if he gives his little speech at the family table and everyone is skittish about it he'll back off and he'll wait till he can persuade them you see the difference he may not have looked into the whole idea of taking a white water trip his kids are teenagers and they want to he feels this will be wonderful and exciting and the first time he proposes it they're scared to death what's the time for the kids home and the kids say daddy we're all going to be bashed on the rocks and no way so he calls up the people and says sorry cancel my raft cancel all the equipment I got a lot of work to do so he begins to feed them little pieces of literature on the glories of white water tricks and all the rest until what happens he graces he persuades them and is able to move them in that direction have I given enough illustrations to give you a feel for what we're talking about well that's precisely what we are doing when as elders we come before you announce that we've made an administrative decision but say in moving in this direction we would like to know

41:51 that we move with your consent and your support in other words as one of my fellow elders stated it your congregational vote in such decisions is exactly what your amen is when one of us is preaching you see we're opening up the word and we say this is what the text says this is what it means and your judgment is carried and your heart is carried and your spirit is carried and finally your mouth opens up and says amen so be it I see it my heart is with it I affirm it well that's what the congregational vote is with respect to administrative decisions it is the corporate amen of the congregation that indeed this is the will of Christ for us as the people of God now let me quote from a couple of the old writers because they understood this very well in setting out the contrast between congregationalism that says the elders can't move until they have the suffrage of the congregation that is congregationalism the elders are only suggestors and implementors suggestors and implementors that's all they are not governors rulers shepherds fathers leaders in any true sense well Owen is dealing with that fact that some think that way and this is what he says

43:21 on page 131 of volume 16 which is the classic work of Owen on the subject of the church and therefore where anything is acted and disposed in the church by suffrage or voting or the plurality of voices the vote of the fraternity that is the congregation is not determining and authoritative but only declarative of consent and obedience isn't that beautiful it is declarative of consent and obedience obedience in the case of church discipline consent is not in the place or in the case of administrative decisions now another wise and perceptive comment is found in Bannerman who says yes elders are to rule and that rule is valid and it does not wait upon congregational vote to be valid now he goes on to qualify in this very wise way he says the system of rule by elder requires that every proper means be employed in the way of explanation persuasion and instruction to secure the concurrence of the members in the acts and proceedings of the rulers see what he's saying every legitimate means of explanation

44:49 by the elders to the congregation add to explanation persuasion instruction to secure the concurrence the concurrence of the decision of the elders it's made by the elders now they seek concurrence consent support but those who hold to rule by elder do not like those who practice congregationalism hold that this consent is a condition upon which the lawfulness of the acts of the office bearers is suspended or as much a necessary element in any judgment of the church as the consent of the rulers themselves on the contrary the consent of the members is upon biblical rule by elder a consent added to the authoritative decision of the office bearers not entering into it as an element necessary to its validity without which it would be neither lawful nor binding now you see that distinction we as elders acts 1317 we will give an account for the care of the elders of the souls of men you do not give an account of the congregation you'll give an account of yourself to God Romans 14 12 but there is a specific body within the congregation who shall give an account

46:18 of the souls of the congregation obey them that have the rule over you and submit to them for they watch for your souls as they who shall give an account that they may do so with joy and love and love not with grief for this were unprofitable to you now I freely confess that not out of willful and deliberate inaccuracy but out of lack of precision in my own thinking on the matter that at times I have chaired congregational meetings where I have not made this sufficiently clear in setting a proposal before you and I confess my fault in that matter and by the grace of God in the future whenever my fellow elders designate me as their spokesman in setting before you a proposal for your confirmation and consent or support I will attempt to make it very clear that that is precisely what I am doing that I am not coming saying we'd like to go in this direction but until we get your almighty suffrage we can't we're bound until you say yea now I know there are a lot of questions and I won't anticipate them I'll let you ask them alright I've given the material we could amplify much of it Pastor Nichols any one of those that you'd like to qualify or fine tune or alright good if you would please there is one thing

Distinction from Presbyterian Polity and Elder Resolve

47:47 I think should be underscored and that's the distinction between art position and practice and the classic Presbyterian viewpoint yes just you've touched on this before but I just want to clarify this or maybe not clarify just put a red line under this yes in a Presbyterian situation the congregational vote has no authority never has authority not in the matter of recognizing officers not in the matter of discipline in the reception of a pastor a specific officer it does but that's in the reception alright but it's the Presbytery that appoints it's the Presbyters that discipline now we're not saying that yes I can illustrate unless you go along alright nor is our constitution saying that in our in other words in our constitution without the vote of the congregation a person is not an officer of this church it cannot be one and that's in accordance with scripture amen because it says let these also first be proved then let them serve if they are they be found in plainness yes the second thing is with respect to excommunication without the congregational vote the person is not excommunicated yes that's another point

49:17 alright so there's a difference there between the place that the congregational vote has yes in those things and the place that it has say in something like we recently proposed with reference to the house in West Orange if I can illustrate it this way most some of you are not aware of the Presbyterian structure but it's basically this here are these churches in a given geographical area alright this may be the northeast Presbytery of the Podunk Presbyterian Church ok now you have office bearers and according to their church rules so many will be designated they usually say one teaching elder one ruling elder it's different in different Presbyterian denominations now when these two men come together at a certain place at a certain time and two men from this church two men from this church and this they together constitute what is called Presbytery in that given area now that group Presbytery in that area will examine a candidate for the ministry he will come before them and according to differing rules that different Presbyterian churches have he will meet certain standards they will then ordain him to the Christian ministry alright then when one of their churches says we need a pastor can you help us they will say here are three men whom we have ordained you may now consider these three men and the church

50:46 has a vote in terms of calling one of those men but the actual recognition that he is a gift of Christ is not given to the church to make but it's given to Presbytery to make you see that distinction Pastor Nichols has emphasized alright second distinction is in Presbyterianism the elders and you should see the way they try to get around Matthew 18 that's what convinced me that the position didn't hold water when I was trying to embrace it tell it to the church they said that is to the church's leaders and representatives in a Presbyterian set up the elders in their own court meeting over the case of Mr. X if they decide that he should be excommunicated they come and simply announce to the church he is excommunicated treat him accordingly no suffering is sought from the people no expression of their determination to be obedient to the will of Christ in cutting him off so that's a fundamental distinction between us and Presbyterianism and Presbyterians with regard to these two matters is that clear to you now do you see that on the board good glad you brought that up Pastor Nichols and another I'm just going to say because that quote from Vanderman is not true in the absolute sense of the word yeah yeah yeah I'm glad you made that distinction this will help you then to understand sometimes when interacting with our

52:15 Presbyterian brethren you say Presbytery did this what is that is that the see we have a Presbytery but it doesn't extend beyond this local church the Presbytery met last night five of us and during that time we had a brother who is a Presbyter in another situation meet with us and talk so our Presbytery met last night it meets every Saturday night sometimes meets more frequently in between Saturdays but we have no Presbytery beyond the elders the Presbyters of the local assembly alright further question any area of this that you feel needs to be amplified well let me raise one then because I'm sure this question will come up in some people's minds suppose the elders came before you with an administrative decision for which they were seeking your consent and support and after laying it out your consent and your support were not forthcoming what should they do someone asked me this last week in fact that was a question that Phil anticipated last week well the answer is it all depends what the issue was if it was an administrative decision involving what we regarded to be an immediate duty then we would have to pursue it in spite of not having the consent of the whole congregation because the New Testament does indicate that there are times when churches so degenerate that those who obey

53:44 Christ are the minority not the majority if you doubt it read Revelation 2 and 3 if you doubt it read 2nd Corinthians where Paul could not even go back and be welcomed as a bona fide apostle alright God forbid that the time should ever come when Trinity Church is so out of touch with Christ and his word that something that was patently biblical would be resisted but if it does come God grant that Trinity Church will be blessed with elders with enough spiritual guts to stand up against a recalcitrant bunch of rebels and do Christ's will God grant that it will have men of sufficient spiritual guts to do it and not be intimidated by people's frowns or pouting faces that sit in the back row sticking their tongue out and wiggling their ears and that's why we need to pray God make the kind of men who will bear the burden of assertive leadership will not be marked by any of those six characteristics of eldership tyranny and yet have the fiber and the spiritual grace to stand like granite when an issue of the will of Christ or the will of the congregation come into conflict now thank God in twenty years we've never known that collision may God perpetuate it till Jesus comes let us pray

Closing Prayer

55:12 Holy Father we stand back and marvel at the wisdom of our Savior in instituting the form of government which is to regulate the church which he loved and for which he shed his blood we thank you that you have brought us to the conviction that the life and government of the church is not a matter of human caprice or inclination or disposition or cultural flavor but is a matter of revealed truth oh Lord embed in our hearts as never before what it is to be obedient to him who is the only true master and Lord in his church and to walk together in such peace and harmony under the rule of Christ that our life together will be a sweet savor of Jesus to a needy and to a perishing world thank you for your presence with us for our time together may your benediction and grace continue upon us in the moments between now and our gathering for worship oh Lord prepare us draw us out to praise you with holy abandonment to seek you with deep heart earnestness and to

56:41 attend to your word with eagerness and with faith we ask with thankful hearts through our Lord Jesus Christ Amen