Presumption vs Unbelief in Prayer (SS Open Forum)

Introduction to the Open Forum and Analyzing the Question

0:03 Now, in considering how best to use this time, the elders felt it would be well to have one of our open-ended sessions. It's been some time since we've had such a session, and as usual, if there are not questions forthcoming from you which would, in the judgment of the one standing before you, result in mutual edification, if they were discussed, I do have a subject to propose. And perhaps I should say something by way of introduction for some of you perhaps who have not sat in on such a session. When we have these sessions, it's not that I try to play answer man, but when a question is raised, I try to do several things.

0:46 First of all, we try to analyze what the real question is in the question. And after analyzing the question, then I try to get you as a people to attack the question in a biblical manner, instructing you, I hope. I hope in some principles of how to resolve a question biblically, and then in our actual handling of the Bible, I try to convey principles of sound interpretation and of a wholesome handling of Scripture. So those are the three goals that I always have in mind in these sessions, to teach you, in some measure, how critically to analyze a question and try to get at the real question that lies behind or beneath the words of the question, and then how to attack a question within a biblical sphere of reference, and then actually how to handle the Scriptures themselves. So if you're here this morning and your heart has leaped within you at the thought, ah, now I can get that question off my chest and out of my head or wherever else it's lodging, why, this is your opportunity. The only regulation is that I reserve the right to make a decision as to whether or not the discussion of that question would be...

1:59 be in the interest of mutual edification. And so if your question is put down, please, I hope you don't feel put down. It is only a matter of trying to operate within the framework of the biblical mandate, let all things be done unto edification. You fellas and girls, your questions are as valid as the adults, though I'm sure most of you would feel embarrassed to ask a question.

2:22 That's your problem. We welcome your questions. So if you have one you want to ask, this class is yours for this morning as well. All right?

2:30 Michael. For our prayers, the presumption of God and the problem of being unbelieving to the things that we pray for.

2:56 In my earlier Christian life, when I didn't have the knowledge of presumption, I was presumptuous, but my prayer life seemed to be much more fervent, and I saw God working a whole lot more.

3:13 But after a period of years, I've seen my needs being met daily, and as a result, I've had little... All right.

3:27 No, I think I know the area, and I think anyone who's been a Christian longer than six months or a year and takes prayer seriously has at one time or another wrestled with the question. All right, let's analyze the question then, and whoever knows where the chalk is kept out in that cupboard, if you would help me, please, I'll be down to my fingernails before long.

3:48 And this is a suggestion I'll be making to Mr. Garlington. And any of you who...

3:52 Whenever you step to this blackboard, your voice gets bounced up behind this balance, and so you've got to project a little bit more, and I've cranked up the volume about a third more, and you don't even know it, most of you, but I have, and then I'll turn it down when I get up here, and it'll pretty much stay even, all right? Good.

4:12 Thank you, Mr. Dixon. That'll be a plenty, I'm sure. All right, let's analyze the question then that Mike has asked.

4:18 It's in the general area of prayer. Now, the question, obviously, has to do not with prayer as a general discipline, but prayer specifically related to what, Mike? What has been assumed in your question? We're in a specific field of prayer.

4:42 All right, prayer in terms of, or prayer with reference to asking God for things. Isn't this your question? In other words, it's not a question concerning prayer that touches upon confession. Prayer that involves...

5:00 Specifically, praise. But it has to do in those areas where we're asking God for specific commodities, particularly commodities that are what?

5:13 What in nature?

5:18 All right, yeah, we're getting to what I'm fishing for. Do you have any question about when you pray that God will make you a more holy man, a better father, a more loving husband, whether or not that's the will of God? Clearly, it's God. Okay, all right.

5:32 So it has to do with petition, the asking of things. With respect to matters not clearly revealed in the scriptures in terms of their specifics. I mean, do you don't ever have any problem when you're pleading with God fervently to make you a more sensitive, loving husband, do you? No, I'm not asking you how often you pray that, but I mean when you do.

5:55 When you do, you don't have to pray if it be thy will, do you? No. Okay, so we're in the realm now of how we are to pray with respect to petition, the asking for things, particularly...

6:06 Things not clearly revealed with respect to whether or not it is the will of God to grant them. Now, in so doing, Michael's question is, how do I walk the narrow road of holding a biblical balance, not falling on the one side into the ditch of presumption or on the rocks of unbelief? So we've analyzed Mike's question. Now, let's put it in a concrete situation.

Applying the Question to a Concrete Situation: The Church Building

6:43 Okay. All right? Give me one thing that comes within this specific field of concern.

6:51 Okay. All right. Good question. Very relevant issue.

6:54 All right? The whole matter of the construction of the church building. Is it presumption to claim that God would provide the money, or is it unbelief to fail to claim and believe that God will provide all of the money?

7:17 All right? Are we scratching where you itch now? Okay. All right.

7:21 So we've analyzed the question, and it obviously would refer to such matters as, shall I or shall I not go ahead and purchase this particular automobile, this house? I've analyzed all the issues. God has said he'd supply my needs, but is this really a need? Other questions come into play here, but in this particular general area of concern, I think the issue now is clear to us.

7:45 Is it clear to you? All right. Now, how do we attack the problem? Okay.

Principle 1: Searching Our Motives and Assessing Needs

7:51 What should be some of our first points of reference from the Word of God, desiring to be kept on the one hand from presumption, and on the other hand from unbelief? What do you do as you wrestle with this problem? And I hope you wrestle with it. All right?

8:10 All right. So what you're saying is, before we can know whether or not we're presuming and asking for this, or whether we are groveling in unbelief, we must search our motives with respect. And we must look at the situation in which we're in. And we must look at the situation in which we're in.

8:32 And we must look at the situation in which we're in. And we must look at the situation in which we're in. Is that the point you're making? And you're basing it on what passage?

8:39 Can someone bail him out? It's in James. At least he knows the town number. Someone give him the street and the house number.

8:48 It's good to know the town. You can usually...

8:50 Huh? James 4 and what? All right. James 4 and verse 3.

8:57 Read it for us if you will, please, Mark. All right. Here, the cause for the non-reception is said that there is a wrong motivation. Okay?

9:12 Now, you want to agree with me? Agree with Mark or disagree that this is certainly one of the fundamental issues that must enter the realm of this particular question. Anyone want to disagree with him?

9:25 All right. Your silence, then, is agreement. Yes, Bob?

9:42 Okay. All right. You must list out the pertinent principles of Scripture, and this is one. All right?

9:47 Can someone give another?

9:51 What are you doing as you pray about this matter of the church building, keeping it in the concrete? Are you presuming? Do you pray, Lord, we're claiming that you'll grant this, or are you simply saying, oh, well, if it comes, it comes, and my faith will have little or nothing to do with the ultimate issue. It's all too complex for me anyway.

10:09 Let the elders take care of that.

10:12 All right. Another principle. Yes, Louise? All right.

10:24 So you're saying, then, an honest analysis of the situation will often help us to know whether or not what we're praying for is indeed a need or a luxury. All right. So let's list these things now. Number one, searching, looking out of motive, whether or not it is a need.

10:46 Now, what's the problem with that second thing?

10:56 All right. Are we an infallible interpreter of what we really need?

11:02 Is anyone here an infallible interpreter of what he or she really needs? Now, that's where our problem comes. Now, we must search the matter out, seek to have our motives purified, and pray in the light of what we believe is our need. But can you think of an instance where someone prayed, very fervently and repeatedly, for something he was convinced was a need, and then God pulled the veil back and showed him the real situation?

11:27 Phil?

11:29 Paul with his thorn. 2 Corinthians 12. He said, God has commissioned me to be an apostle to the Gentile nations. Now God has allowed this physical affliction, whatever this stake in his flesh was, Paul said, I need to have that removed, or I can't accomplish the will of God.

11:50 So he said, for this thing, I sought the Lord thrice. That is, there were three seasons of intense, fervent petition. And in all likelihood, probably even prayer with fasting, because he mentions in another context, in watchings oft, in fastings oft. And then God pulled the veil back and said, no, you do not need to have this weakness removed.

12:16 What you need is to be kept consciously dependent upon me, and consciously dependent upon me, and consciously dependent upon me, and consciously dependent upon me, and consciously dependent upon me, and consciously dependent upon me, and consciously humble, if you are to complete your task. So God says, my grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in weakness, I'm allowing this, lest through the abundance of the revelations, you begin to stop like a spiritual peacock, Paul, and if you did, pride would cut the nerve of your spiritual power, and though you might have physical strength to go to the Gentiles, you would have no spiritual ownership. So, you see, when God pulled the veil back, the real need, it was not as the Apostle assumed that it was. So here's the problem with this.

12:58 Now, the point that Mrs. Mikowski has made is a valid one. We need to wrestle through and seek to come to a resolution of whether or not what we're asking is indeed a need, but realizing that we are imperfect in our assessment of our need, just as we are imperfect in searching out our motives after we've searched out our motives. Psalm 139.

13:21 We need to end with the prayer, Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts. See if there be any wicked way in me. Having searched our hearts, we need to pray that God will take the searchlight even deeper.

13:37 Likewise here, having wrestled through the issue, if we've come to the conviction in the light of the best information we are able to lay out before us in the light of the Word, having done all of that, what do we need to append to our prayer, if not in words, at least in principle?

Principle 2: Praying Without Anxiety and Bringing Specific Requests to God

13:57 Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. Now, that doesn't mean we put that at the beginning as an excuse for searching out the issue as to whether or not it's a need. Just like the person who won't search his own heart and says, well, who can plumb the depths of his own heart so I won't engage in self-examination? Lord, you search me, and if you find anything, let me know.

14:20 Well, that kind of person never has his heart searched. We have a responsibility to search our own hearts. The Scripture is full of such admonitions. Let us search and try our ways.

14:32 But at the same time, realizing that our ability to do so is limited, we pray that God will come in and search us likewise with the matter of the need. All right? Another principle that must guide us in this whole thing. I think there was a hand raised back here, and then we'll come to you, Larry.

14:46 Yes, Steve? So what you're saying is, if I hear you rightly, is that in the light of, Philippians 4, 5 and 6, or 6 and 7, yeah, 6 and 7, we may not necessarily have to pray with an absolute conviction with respect to whether or not it is the will of God to give it. You see, part of the problem may be, Mike, in this kind of question, we put ourselves in an unenviable and unnecessary position, feeling that if I can't pray saying, I know God is going to give it, we're not really praying in faith. When in reality, praying in faith is praying in terms of the revealed will of God to us. And the point that Steve is making is Philippians 4 says, be anxious for nothing. Whatever this particular thing is that would make me full of anxiety, whether or not we're going to have an adequate church building, whether or not we're going to have this home, this particular commodity, in nothing be anxious.

16:11 But in everything, by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God, and it doesn't say, and the power of God will grant you everything you ask. But it says, the peace of God shall guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus, so that there is that sense that I'm not agitated as to the outcome. Now, is that praying in faith, even though I cannot say I have a specific conviction that God will grant this?

16:41 Yeah, you see? So I think it's a very helpful point that Steve has made. So that third thing will be, what should we call that, Steve? Can you give us something that epitomizes that contribution?

16:58 All right.

17:00 All right, so that having searched our hearts, having sought to analyze the need, we need specifically to bring the thing to God, specifically bring the matter to God in our prayers, okay? Any other principles that ought to guide us? Yes, Larry, you were next.

God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility in Meeting Needs

17:43 Yes, but now how God will meet that need, again, you see, is the question. As we fallible human beings, here is God, with his perfect knowledge of the end from the beginning. That knowledge takes in every single contingency involved. Let's get into the concrete of the matter of constructing a building.

18:03 God knows what our past patterns have been of growth and outreach. God knows what the future will be. God knows what the future in the economy will be. God knows what the future in the ecology will be.

18:17 God has all of these things present before his eyes. With perfect knowledge, not only of each individual element, but of the delicate interplay of all of the elements, each with the other. That's God's omniscience. Furthermore, he stands as sovereign over all of these things, in control of them.

18:39 Now, you see, our problem is that when we, standing here as a congregation, in particular as elders and deacons who are responsible to give responsible leadership and direction, as we look at the factors that we can observe, we're looking only at little bits and pieces of all of these things. We can only anticipate in terms of general patterns and then in the light of that come to a conclusion it appears to us that we need this. And therefore, we are responsible to make the kinds of decisions and give the kind of direction to the congregational life, expectancy, giving, etc., that assumes that we are responsible that this is our need.

19:24 But always with the understanding that a sovereign, infinitely wise, all-knowing God may have something in mind that is completely other than this. But someone says, if that's so, then shouldn't we just lay back and say, well, God, do whatever you want? No, that would be presumption because if God's going to give us a building, how's he going to give it to us? He's not going to construct it in one of the empty rooms of heaven and then some morning or in the middle of the night drop it down on the corner of Change Bridge and Horseneck Road and we will all go by and have a celebration.

19:57 God has sent us a building. Now, he could do that. He who created worlds by saying, hey, worlds come into being and it came into being. That'd be no big deal for God.

20:07 But we have no grounds to expect that he's going to work that way. Even when he would build his own dwelling place, when he was giving direct revelation to his people, he didn't do it that way. The tabernacle was constructed of the stuff that they brought to Bezalel and the other workmen, the temple was constructed of stuff that was brought from heathen empires and from the people of God, etc. All right?

20:31 So, some would say, well, why in the world even plan? Why in the world even project what the needs are? Why have a specific Sunday in which we pass out state? Because this is the only responsible activity that responsible leaders can give to a congregation that seems to have this need in a responsible projection of the future.

20:54 But in the meantime, there is that hanging loose with the realization that God is utterly sovereign, he is infinitely wise and powerful, and he knows what he's going to do with us. And therefore, where faith is not shaken, as it would be, you see, if we had irresponsibly, as leaders said, we know that our need can only be met by a building and it must be constructed at such a date and try to whip the troops up into cars, blaming that God would grant it, that would be presumption. What would we then say if the money didn't come in and we weren't able to build the building? Well, you see, we'd be tempted to do one of two things.

21:34 We'd be tempted then to try to make our own answer to our own false expectations and standards.

21:42 Or, on the other hand, we'd be tempted to cynicism and unbelief. And you see, I have seen that. I was part of a situation where they had so-called faith prayer goals for every thanksgiving and the students were told in this particular institution by the leadership, we know, we know that by the morning of December, November 24th or 5th, whenever thanksgiving would fall on that particular year, God is going to send to us $1,000. And if you have $100,000, I'm sorry, and if you have anything, you will be found in little prayer cells wherever you can pray with fellow students thanking God the money's going to come, praising God.

22:23 It's going to be done. Well, you should have seen the double talk that went on on some thanksgiving mornings when the money wasn't there and explaining to us that God really did answer our prayers. Well, you know, you don't pull that kind of stuff on me and a lot of other people who have at least a third of their rationality. $100,000 by thanksgiving morning is $100,000 by thanksgiving morning.

22:45 Not $90,000 by thanksgiving morning. Not $999.99. $99 cents.

22:55 $1,000. $1,000 is $1,000 or beyond and thanksgiving morning is not the day after thanksgiving because there was a snag in the mail or two weeks later, you see. Well, some of us were really disturbed when this kind of business went on and it goes on in churches all the time. At the same time, it would be presumptuous to say if God's going to give us a building, we'll just sit back.

23:21 He's going to supply all our needs. He's going to dump them on us. Well, where do you find that in the Bible? Where did, temple needs of the people of God ever get met that way?

23:30 Except miraculously in certain incidences which are not normative. God sent ravens to provide food for his servant Elijah. But there was reason behind that. God was not capricious.

23:43 He needed to be hidden from the wrath of Jezebel and King Ahab and while hidden, he had a tummy that got empty and he needed a good balanced diet. So the Lord had ravens, I'm personally convinced, plucked food from the open windows of the very cooking house at the palace so that he ate royal food right from Ahab's table. That's my own conviction. I can't prove that from the Bible.

24:08 But I don't think God sent him raw uncooked flesh. I believe it was done to perfection. But anyway, that's just a little theory. I can't prove that from the Bible.

Avoiding False Standards of Faith and the Sin of Presumption

24:17 All right, so we come then to this whole matter. How do we get on to this? All right, bringing the matter to God and because we cannot bring it with a certain conviction that it's the will of God, to give what we ask does not mean we are praying in unbelief. I think that's the point, Mike, personally, where I've had the most hang-ups in this thing.

24:36 Feeling that if I could not rise from my knees and meet the first person who met me and say, hey, what were you doing? Well, I was praying. Well, what were you asking for? Well, I was asking for, you know, ten pounds of beans.

24:46 Well, is God going to give it to you? If I couldn't say, I'm as certain as though I have the ten pounds of beans in my hand that I was praying in unbelief. Not necessarily so.

24:56 Could it be that that's part of the problem, Mike? Yeah. That we set up a false standard of what it is to pray in faith when in reality to come away with that kind of conviction may well indeed be the sin of presumption. Okay?

25:13 All right, any other perspectives? Let's see. George and then Bill and then on the back row. Okay?

Principle 3: Corporate Consciousness and the Spirit's Leading

25:20 Yes, George?

26:18 It's a very good point that George has made. When it comes to corporate needs, a corporate consciousness of a prayer serving people is one of the privileges that grows out of our Biblical doctrine of the indwelling of the Spirit in the Church. Isn't this the point that you're making, George? Yes.

26:42 Good. Good point. Instead of pulling rank and saying, look, I'm the head of this home and God has infallibly revealed. A wise husband will say, wait a minute.

26:53 The Spirit of God dwelling in my wife, making her subject to the Word, dwelling in me, subject to the Word. Can we not ask Him to bring us to oneness of mind with respect to this particular issue? And it's far better to wait until there is that domestic consensus. Very good point, George.

27:11 And with regard to this kind of thing, that's no little factor that if the Spirit of God constrains the people of God in a given direction. For instance, since this whole thing seems to be focusing on the building situation, we'll continue to work that area and then we'll draw a contrasting area. One of the great encouragements to us, and this will be brought out in our brief meeting after communion next Sunday night when we give an updated report on where we are with the money, etc. One of the things that has greatly encouraged us is that the very low-key letter that went out from the tape room, the responses from so many were of this nature.

27:50 Phil has xeroxed a lot of the notes that came in with it in letters. Dear friends at Trinity Church, we are most grateful to God that you shared with us your need. We had no right to do so. We had no idea that such a need existed.

28:04 And God has laid upon our hearts with great joy to send in this amount. And our prayer is that God will move hearts everywhere. Some said, we hope you won't have to borrow a dime for it, that God will send the entire amount. Well, you see, here were the Lord's praying people in a number of places who, as they pray about the stewardship of money, when they received that letter, there was a positive response in their hearts.

28:32 And the Spirit of God gave them a joyous abandonment in sharing with us in need. Well, that encourages us, you see, in terms of this corporate consensus that if the Holy Spirit is the executor of the will of Christ the Head, if the will of the Head in Heaven is carried out by the Spirit on Earth, if we see the Spirit moving a number of His praying children in a given direction, again, we're not infallible in these things, because there can be other things impinging upon their spirits. This, at least, is a great encouragement for us to believe that we're moving in the right direction, that it's not something whereby we've buffaloed ourselves. People on the outside, you see, are concerned in the same direction.

29:21 All right, very good point, George. All right, then Bill Warner and then Frank DiJuana, all right?

Interpreting Promises: The Whole Counsel of God vs. Isolated Verses

29:40 Yes, well, that's the thing we're discussing about. We all have problems with that. And how do we come to the place where we can say, Lord, I do believe you will grant this and to do it in such a way that it's not presumptuous?

30:00 Yes. Yes. All right, so this is why, and here's a tremendously necessary principle, and I hope particularly you young people will get hold of this and be preserved from so much of the error that is rampant in our day. When you come to a specific promise such as Matthew 21, 22, when you pray, believe, you have received the things you ask and you shall have them, people take that as though that was the whole teaching of the Bible on the subject of prayer.

30:28 And they say, this is what it says, and this is particularly the ploy of the so-called faith healers. And the God is a good God theologian, you know. You're driving Ford, you ought to be driving Cadillacs. And we're not building a straw man.

30:41 One of the men in the academy gave me an article this week, an interview with this fellow, Bob Harrington, so-called chaplain of Bourbon Street. And this interview was absolutely shocking. Now, this man is, as known throughout evangelical circles, he'll be giving no fewer than 178 seminars this year on evangelism. Now, you know he's not giving those to liberals.

31:04 They don't have seminars on evangelism. He's giving them in fundamental Bible-believing circles. And this is almost a verbatim quote, and two or three of you have seen the article, so I have witnesses to it. I don't have it with me.

31:18 I didn't think it would come up this morning. In the interview, he said, I no longer tell people that the problem is one of sin, and sin will lead you to hell. He said, I'm doing away with that. He said, the gospel is that God is in your corner.

31:33 And that's a verbatim quote. God is in your corner. He has at heart your happiness, your prosperity, your wealth. And he said, my lifestyle is a living monument of that.

31:43 As he pulls his privately owned Lear jet up to the airport, as he drives in his Lincoln Continentals and his limousines, as he has, bank books going up into the millions, and the whole philosophy is, you see, God's a good God. He said, in the Bible, he said, it's obvious. God doesn't want us to live close to the bone. God wants his people to be lavished with his good gifts.

32:09 Now think, this is the stuff that is being propagated as the essence of the gospel. So get on Jesus' side. He's in your corner. Look up at him and put your arm around him, and then you'll go out and fight all the demons of poverty and having a rough time and everything.

32:25 He said, I'm doing away with that. It's going to be sweet and hunky-dory. Well, you see, that whole mentality would love verses like this. Just believe hard enough and you can have a Lear jet.

32:36 And even the money to take the flight lessons.

32:39 I mean, God will give you everything, you see. Well, the point is, Bill, that we take no individual promise apart from the whole teaching of the Word of God. Now that's where Paul's thorn is a tremendous help to us and a tremendous embarrassment to these kinds of people. They say, look, you just keep coming back to Paul's thorn.

32:59 I say, you bet your boots I do. Because if there was ever a man whose holy walk and zealous service would put him in the place where the personal claims of a godly life as they enter into prayer could give a man boldness to claim his healing, there's the man who could do it. Yet he didn't claim his healing. For this thing I sought the Lord thrice.

33:24 He never claimed, you see. Even one who received direct revelation like Paul did, got his direct revelation not about praying in faith for the removal of his physical affliction, but he got direct revelation in order to accept that affliction for higher ends in the wisdom and goodness of God. You see? So that struggle is a necessary struggle, Bill, if we take the whole teaching of the Word of God.

33:53 You want to respond to that?

Distinguishing Temporal/Physical vs. Spiritual/Inward Blessings

33:56 When? Well, I think the principle must be present whenever we are praying about anything. Let me put it this way.

34:08 There are two major categories of promised blessing in the Word of God. All of them come to us based upon the death of Christ, Romans 8.32. But you have the major category of temporal or physical blessings and the major category of spiritual or inward blessings.

34:31 Now, the old writers on the subject of prayer said you must always keep that distinction in mind. The promises to the temporal and physical are always qualified,

34:47 limited, general promises. The promises to the spiritual and the inward are more unqualified,

34:58 specific, and unlimited. Be ye holy for all of you. For I am holy. I never need to pray, Oh God, make me a more holy man, if it be your will.

35:11 No. He has said, the standard for your holiness is my own holiness. And as long as I'm short of that, I can plead fervently and earnestly for greater measures of holiness and I never need to say if it be thy will. But now, where has God said, be ye healthy as I am healthy?

35:31 Where is there an unlimited, unqualified promise of physical health? There is none if the word of God is interpreted properly. Now, some would take the verse from 2 John. I will that thou be in health and prosper even as thy soul prospers.

35:49 Yes, that's right. You want John to write and say, hey, you people, I wish half of you are sick half the time.

35:55 He's merely expressing goodwill to his fellow believers. Now, goodwill is not a specific revelation of the will of God for a specific individual in a specific crisis of physical problems. Ah, but it says, who healeth all thy diseases, the healer says. Ah, yes, it does.

36:14 Whenever you get a disease healed, who healed it?

36:18 God did, and that's all it says. Because that's the same David who said, it's good for me that I've been a fool. So you see, these texts that look so imposing in the hands of the healers, they crumble with just a little pressure of an honest dealing with the word of God. All right, Bill?

Fervency in Prayer and the Lack of Unqualified Promises for Individual Salvation

36:36 All right, now, Frank, and then we'll come back to you, Louise. Yes. Oh, that's a good point. That makes sense, doesn't it, Mike?

37:16 That strikes a good note here and here. Here and here. Yeah. Very good point.

37:21 And two examples. Our Lord and the great apostle. They didn't just say because they weren't clear on the issue, Oh, God, if you want to take this thorn away, hope you'll do it someday. I sought the Lord thrice.

37:35 And then you have that thing in the garden, do you not? I wonder if Paul didn't take that very clue. Three times, our Lord prayed in such spiritual agony that he sweat, as it were, great drops of blood. Oh, my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass.

37:53 Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. A very good point that fervency does not automatically mean this presumptuous claiming from God. All right? Now, Louise.

38:15 Yeah.

38:27 Because God has not given a specific promise concerning the salvation of any specific individuals that he will save all for whom, the Son died, yes. But I have no specific revelation in Scripture that God is going to save the neighbors to the right of me, to the left of me, or the fruit of my own loins. I wish I could find in Scripture a solidly based promise that I can, quote, claim the salvation of my own children. I assert that any such claim is fanaticism based upon a faulty handling of the Bible or upon yielding to a false spirit that has given me such an assurance. Case in point, when Paul is talking about unsaved husbands and wives living together, what does he say in 1 Corinthians 7? If the unbeliever be pleased to dwell, let not the believer depart. Who knoweth, O man, whether thou wilt save thy wife?

39:34 That's all he says. Who knoweth? God knows. There's a possibility.

39:38 But he doesn't say, Nay, know thou, O woman, that living with him thou shalt save him. You see? Excuse me for getting excited, but to me this is so vital, Louise, because I have seen parents who so long, or unsaved mates, so longing for the salvation of these loved ones, they began to, quote, claim them. Then when they died, obviously in impenitence, they did a jig in saying, well, I just believe that in those last moments, though the last words had nothing of Christ, somehow in those last moments as they drifted out into that other world, and God saved them.

40:15 Well, you see, that's grasping at straws. And here's where we have a real controversy with some of our pedo-baptist friends. Not all of them. Not all.

40:25 Now, don't go out and say all of them teach this. Please don't. That's unkind. It's untrue.

40:30 It's ungracious. It's on everything. But there are many of them who find themselves very comfortable with their doctrine of the covenant as it relates to the seed of believers because it seems to give them that resting place to claim the salvation of their own offspring. But God can't make things any more plain than He made them in the first enunciation of that covenant arrangement.

41:00 What did He do? He said, it's not Ishmael, it's Isaac. Later on, with twins, Jacob, have I loved. Esau, have I hated.

41:13 Isaac could have, quote, claimed the salvation of both sons till he died. God had set his love upon one. You say, that's hard doctrine. It's biblical.

41:24 Will you charge it with me? Have I quoted my own texts or is that Bible? You say. So in answer to that question, Louise, though it is a spiritual blessing for which we pray, it is not one concerning which we have an unqualified promise.

41:39 So we have to continue to plead, plead with God. Bring our arguments to God. Because we know that if they are to be saved, one of the means God will use is our prayers. And then we just got to let the mystery rest.

41:53 If God has purposed to save them, why pray? Because God tells us to pray. And He doesn't promise us that He'll save them apart from our prayers any more than He'll save them apart from the gospel. Someone says, I can't live with that kind of tension.

42:05 Then, my friend, your controversy is with God. He's created it by the revelation in His Word. All right? Yes, dear?

Boldness in Prayer for Spiritual Blessings and the Filial Relationship

42:19 Yes.

42:25 Yes. 1 John 5, 14 and 15. This is the boldness which we have toward Him that if we ask anything according to His will, we know that He heareth us. And if we know that He heareth us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of Him.

42:42 And it's very interesting, is it not, that in the context He then goes on to talk not about praying for Cadillacs and cars and homes, but for praying for sinning brethren. That they would be restored. And that's one thing we can pray with boldness. Lord, if so and so is yours, then bring him back because you've promised though the righteous fall seven times, the Lord will restore him and pick him up again.

43:10 He that has begun a good work will carry it on until the day of Christ. You see? So that in the very context this asking anything according to His will goes right on to deal with praying for spiritual blessings with reference to those who are the recipients of those blessings. Very interesting, isn't it?

43:27 That the context, though not limiting it only to that, places the emphasis there.

43:34 Yes.

43:39 Bring it up with about a half more volume, all right? So that it goes all the way up to the balcony. Good. There's an analogy here of when we plead with God we're going to hear as children coming for Him.

43:55 We can't know He has His will. Then we come to Him pleading things that are not explicitly not in His will. Please, faithfully, as children with our fathers knowing that God knowing all things and having our highest interest at heart will grant us those things. Yes.

44:15 The point that Bob is making both the Matthew passage and the Luke 11, 13 passage indicate that in our coming to God as His children we ought to come in that context of the filial relationship. The intimacy of a son with a father and where there's a good relationship and a child has confidence that the father is administering the household and all that he gives from that place of administration for the best interest of the entire household as well as all the individuals. He can come and say, Dad, or she can come and say, Dad, Mom,

44:52 could I or may I have thus and thus and thus in the confidence that the parent is not one who's a tight-fisted Simon Legree trying to make life miserable for the child but that the father or mother can look at that child and say, well, dear, I can appreciate how you'd like that and why that would make you happy but I don't believe it would be wise to give it to you at this time and here are my reasons. Or the parent may say, you wouldn't understand my reasons now but if you have any confidence in my love, trust me that my refusal is more an act of love than would be my compliance. Now that's where you really have put to the test the relationship to your children. When you can say that and they can say maybe with some carnal reluctance on the surface but down underneath, all right, Dad, all right, Mom, I don't see how it can be but your past performance earns my confidence and I'm going to trust you. So it's a very vital point and with that we're going to have to quit because it's right at 10.30.

46:01 All right, let's pray. Our Father, we do indeed thank you for the blessing of this hour together, the privilege of wrestling with this very practical and very deeply involved question. We thank you for moving Mike to ask that question and directing us as we've wrestled with the scriptures. Lord, help all of us in this.

46:29 Some of us do remember in our infancy as babes you kept back some of the complexity of the problems of prayer while you encouraged us simply to pray but as we've grown you've shown us that there are problems and there are problems and that there is a complexity of biblical perspectives and we pray that we may not be irritated by this and have an irresponsible and nostalgic longing for the days of our infancy but Lord, help us to be grown up men and women who live by the rule of the entirety of scripture. We thank you for our time together. Teach us, oh Lord, teach us to pray. We ask through our Lord Jesus Christ.

47:12 Amen.