Conclusion; Q. and A. (Part 1) (Albert Martin)

Recap of Revelation Study and Dominant Themes

0:01 For the benefit of those who have not been with us, we have, for the past five weeks, been conducting a study which could best be entitled a broad overview of the book of the Revelation. One of the seminary students showed the spirit of those who tread where angels fear to trod, attempted to bite off and chew, and then present to you in a matter of a couple of weeks, a broad overview of this book that some of us have been scared of for years, and we've all been deeply indebted to his measure of, what you recall, sanctified brass in attempting

0:43 to do what he did, and seriously, we've all been greatly enriched by this bird's-eye view of the book of the Revelation. The basic assumption in his introduction of the study, and also in the part that I've been privileged to have, is that the book of the Revelation was, negatively, not given in order to give to us pre-written history that would satisfy idle curiosity about future events, but rather, it was a letter sent to seven churches, actually existing towards the end of the first century, who stood in need of consolation, of encouragement,

1:23 of direction, in the light of their present circumstances, which were marked by suffering and by tremendous opposition from the world. And on the other hand, by declension within the ranks of the church itself. And so, one's approach to the book of the Revelation will be colored by this basic assumption that it is a letter written to living churches in the midst of real situations, coming with real perspectives that answer to their real needs. And Mr. Fisher suggested, and I think rightly so, that a very convenient, and certainly

2:00 it is not artificial. The way to collate the materials is to do so in the light of the four visions that occur in four distinct places, and the outline is there for you. I will not weary you with going over what you can obviously read as you look at the book. Having then given a broad overview, all the way from the introduction to the conclusion and the main substance of the four visions in between, last week we sought to ask and answer the question, What are the dominant themes which pervade all of the visions, and in a real sense, even are woven into the introduction and to the conclusion?

2:42 In other words, when a first century Christian would have sat in an assembly somewhere in Pergamos, Thyatira, Philadelphia, Laodicea, Ephesus, and after having heard one of the elders, or several of the elders in succession, read this letter to the gathered church, the church, what dominant themes would have been sounded in their ears? What themes, like a recurring motif in a beautiful work of music, would have lingered in the ears of the people of God? And you suggested a number, and then I tried to collate those and present what I felt were the main themes.

3:25 I'll simply read them, and then I have a seventh. I talked with Mr. Fisher at the close of the class, and he felt, maybe there was an area that should have been emphasized a little bit more, and upon reflection, I felt the same. So we'll just mention the six that I gave you, spend about ten minutes opening up the seventh, and then the rest of the class will be given over to questions, answers, and discussion.

Review of Six Dominant Themes of Revelation

3:47 I suggested that the main themes of the book of the Revelation are these. Number one, in all of its triumphs and trials, Jesus Christ is in the midst of his church until he perfects it. Number two, in all of its triumphs and trials, Jesus Christ is in the midst of his church until he perfects it, and after, of course, at his return. That theme goes all the way through the book, from the very first chapter in which Christ is seen in the midst of the land stands, the seven churches, right to the end when the land is the glory of the perfected church in all of its trials and its triumphs, Jesus Christ is in the midst of his church until he perfects it, and after, of course, at his return.

4:26 Number three, the second dominant theme, all that transpires in human history. Number three, the second dominant theme, all that transpires in human history, finds its true significance in relationship to the history of the church. All of the visions from the first to the last have to do with the church. God is not satisfied in our curiosity concerning the common market, concerning any possible federation between Russia and China and all this other foolishness that goes on in the name of interpreting the book of the Revelation.

4:58 Everything that transpires in human history. All that transpires in human history finds its true significance in relationship to the history of the church. There is no finer book in all of the Bible from which to extract a philosophy of history than the book of the Revelation. The third dominant theme, all that transpires in human history is under the sovereign control of God and of the land.

5:24 From that opening vision in chapter four when the angel said, I'll show you things to come, and John says, He took me and I will show you things to come. He took me and I will show you things to come. He took me into heaven, a door was opened, and I saw a throne and one sitting upon it. Before he shows him things, he shows him the one who sits upon the throne administering all the things that will be unfolded in the visions.

5:45 Fourth dominant emphasis, Jesus Christ shall conquer all of his and his people's enemies. Again, right in the beginning of the messages to the seven churches, to him that overcometh I will grant to sit with me upon my throne. As I have crushed and will crush with a rod of iron, the one who overcomes shall with me reign to rule with a rod of iron. Jesus Christ shall conquer all of his and his people's enemies.

6:14 The fifth dominant theme, the martyred saints are in a better state now than when they were upon the earth. Chapter 6, 14, 15, 20, people who might soon face the lions, who might soon face the executioner's sword. What a tremendous thing to know that all the wickedness and combined hatred of the world can do, in the words of one of the old covenantal inscriptions, is to chase the saint up to heaven. The martyrs are in a much better state now, having been martyred, than they were upon the earth, than the six.

Introduction of the Seventh Dominant Theme: Invisible Warfare

6:50 The dominant theme, the saints must overcome to inherit the promises. It is certain that they shall be preserved. It is necessary that they shall overcome. Now then, the seventh dominant theme, or maybe the eighth.

7:07 I may have split up that sixth one, some of you who took notes. I may have said the saints shall be preserved, the saints must overcome. As I remember, I did split it up into two, though I only had one in my notes. So seventh or eighth, whichever is correct.

7:18 This is another dominant theme. Though it could be a subheading under one of them, I think deserves articulation as a separate heading, and it is this. Behind the visible events and circumstances of the church in human history, behind the visible events and circumstances of the church in human history, is the invisible warfare between God and the devil. The book of the Revelation not only shows us, as it were, on the stage, the actors of human history,

7:58 the people of God, the opposition of worldly government, of governments opposed to the gospel, etc., but then we are taking this word behind the stage to see what is really happening in all the events that occur on the stage of human history. Therefore, behind the visible events and circumstances of the church in human history is the invisible warfare, which is the invisible warfare between God and the devil. Now let me substantiate this very quickly by just sweeping through from the early chapters to the closing chapters, picking out four or five passages along the way.

Scriptural Substantiation of Invisible Warfare in Revelation

8:35 In chapter two and verse ten, when the risen Lord, in the midst of the land stands, speaks to the church in Smyrna, he says in verse nine, I know thy tribulation and thy poverty, but thou art rich. and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Now what does he do? These believers were being persecuted by some who ostensibly were claiming adherence to the scriptures, to the Jewish faith.

9:17 Now he says behind the activity of these who are opposing you is the activity of Satan himself. Verse 10, fear not the things that thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison and ye may be tried. Now is the Lord saying that literally the devil is going to come and take upon himself a human form as he occasionally does and literally take some believers like this and throw them into prison?

9:44 Of course not. He's saying when the Roman official comes, when the Roman soldier comes, when the apostate religious leader comes and throws you into prison, that's what you see on the stage of human history. That's what your neighbors see. But behind that is the activity of the devil himself opposing the work of the Lamb.

10:07 Notice how this note is sounded in chapter 3 and verse 9. Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet and to know that I have loved thee.

10:25 Here's that same emphasis, you see, that behind the workings of apostate religion against the vital, vibrant faith of the early Christians is the activity of the devil himself. Turn to chapter 9.

10:42 Here is this almost horrendous picture. This is the kind of thing you expect to find in the preview of some horror movie where these unusual beasts and creatures and all of the rest, and in chapter 9 we have the picture of this smoking abyss that is opened up and the smoke billows forth and out of it comes these grotesque creatures. Now notice the significant word, verse 11. They have over them as king the angel of the abyss.

11:13 His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek tongue he hath the name Apollyon. In other words, these beings, these creatures, who represent a certain form, are not on a mission of their own, but they are the dupes, the serfs, the lackeys of this one called Apollyon, the devil himself. All right? The same emphasis in chapter 12 and verse 1.

11:40 And Mr. Fisher, you'll remember, understood this. A great sign was seen in heaven. A woman arrayed with the sun and the moon under her feet and upon her head a crown of twelve stars, and she was with child, and she cried out, Travailing!

11:55 Birth in pain to be delivered. Here's the picture of the Old Testament church giving birth to Messiah. There was seen another sign in heaven. And behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns and upon his head seven diadems.

12:11 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, and when she is delivered, he may devour her child. You see, here's the picture again that behind what happens on earth, the opposition that would have sought to kill Messiah in his infancy, when Herod sent out the decree that every child two years old and under should be killed. What was behind this?

12:41 There was the work of the dragon seeking to consume the man-child. That emphasis goes right down through verse 7. And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels going forth to war, and there was war with the dragon.

12:56 Chapter 13, verse 7, similar emphasis. It was given unto them to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. Why is all this going on, this coalition of the forces of evil?

13:14 It's because there was given to them and to their leader this power. All right, I don't want to become pedantic and emphasize, but I want to give enough material that you would know this is not something read into the book. It is one of the dominant themes that sounds throughout the book. Behind the visible events and circumstances of the church in human history is the invisible warfare between God and the devil.

The Origin and Reality of Spiritual Warfare

13:43 Now, why is this so? For the simple reason that God himself ordained that it should be so, according to Genesis 3.15. Once sin entered the human race, it was God who came to our first parents and said, I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed.

14:05 Thou shalt bruise his heel, but he shall bruise thy head. And in a very real sense, you see, what we find in the book of the Revelation, in all of this vivid imagery, is the final unfolding of that which God himself initiated and then enunciated there in Genesis, Genesis 3 and verse 15. And throughout the scriptures, right on into the New Testament, in particular, remember in Matthew 12, Jesus talked about binding the strong man that he might spoil his goods. John 12.31,

14:38 Now is the judgment of the prince of this world. Colossians 2.14 and 15, Christ has spoiled principalities and powers. Hebrews 2.14,

14:48 He has destroyed him that had the power of death. 1 John 3.8, For this purpose the Son of God was, manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Now, what do we conclude from this?

15:00 Well, we should conclude that the warfare is real. This warfare between God and the devil is not something being worked out like the battles that are worked out in the chessboard that simply involve the pride of some master chessman. These are real battles that involve real people and the real destinies of those real people and a real Christ, and a real devil. And also we learn from this that the temporary triumphs of Satan are real.

15:34 When he bruises the heel of the Son of God, that's a real bruising, that was real death. And when he casts the followers of the Lord Jesus into prison, those are real prisons, with real suffering, with real hardship. We must not act as though these things are not real. God doesn't call us to be Christian scientists, who simply blink and say, it's all an illusion.

15:59 Evil's not real, battle's not real, it's all in my head. Well, you try to comfort a first century saint whose feet are in the stocks and who's about to have his head dropped in a basket and say it's all a matter of mind over matter. If he's not in a moment of unusual graciousness, he's liable to do something that Christians aren't supposed to do. If his hands are not free to pop you, he's liable to spit in your face and say, don't mock me with such foolishness.

16:25 It is real agony, real suffering. You go to some believers there in Southeast Asia, and they say, it's really not real that your child is dying in your arms. That's all a mental illusion. Christian scientists don't make good evangelists to suffering people.

16:39 They always come, generally speaking, to affluent people who can sit around and convince themselves that their problems are only in their head, and most of the time they are. You send a band of Christian science evangelists, readers, over to Southeast Asia now, and tell a woman who holds the battered, bruised, bleeding body of her own child, it's all an illusion. You come back home, and you come back with a lump on your head that's more than an illusion. No, this is real suffering that involves real defeats, temporary defeats of the purposes, apparently, of the purposes of God.

God's Sovereignty Over Satan's Triumphs

17:19 Apparently. But what do we learn through all of this? Two wonderful things. Though the warfare is real, and the temporary triumphs of Satan are real, all of the victories of the devil are but aspects of the conquering plan of God.

17:37 All of the victories of the devil are but aspects of the conquering plan of God. And the classic illustration of that is the death of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, This is your hour and the power of darkness. Satan put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot to betray the Son of God.

18:01 Isn't that what the Scripture says? And in so doing, that temporary defeat was but a mighty cog in the wheel of God's immutable purpose to redeem his people. And that's one of the wonderful lessons that comes out of the book of the Revelation. Is it a triumph of the devil when he kills a Christian?

18:25 When he casts him into prison? Yes. But that very triumph subserves the purpose of God. That's one of the great practical lessons that flows out of this theme.

18:37 And then secondly, all of God's purposes, I mean, I'm sorry, all of Satan's purposes will ultimately be frustrated. Jesus Christ is victor. And the devil and all who swear allegiance to him, the last picture we have of them is the lake of fire forever and forever. And so this seven principle is a vital one, and it may become increasingly vital for us living in the day in which we live, having seen now, in terms of our own national security, our eastern flank broken down, Portugal having succumbed to communist influence, NATO in a shambles,

19:19 our western flank broken down. I'm no alarmist. Those of you who've come here for years know that I've never adopted the mentality that a Christian sits over in a corner and shivers wondering what the world's coming to. At the same time, we need to face realistically, dear people, the things that have been used of God to preserve our liberties and our national identity are breaking down faster than we want to think.

19:42 The eastern and western flanks of our defense having broken down almost overnight, we may need desperately to have this principle written upon our hearts. Behind the visible events and circumstances of the church and human history is the invisible warfare between God and the devil, and though the warfare is real and the temporary triumphs of Satan are real, all of his victories are but aspects of the conquering plan of God, and all of his purposes shall ultimately be frustrated. Jesus Christ is victor. Well, I said we'd finish in about 15 minutes.

Q&A: Satan's Victories and the American Church

20:21 I've pretty well stuck to that. Now it's yours for questions. Any further contributions? Who are the victories over?

20:29 He said he thinks he does win a victory. Is victory over? Well, in the sense that, for instance, right now, I was doing some reading this past week. In the past few years, there's been a tremendous movement of the Spirit of God in Cambodia, and the reports come from responsible sources.

20:48 It's not like the so-called revivals in Indonesia where they claim to turn water into wine and raise the dead and all the rest. Very sane biblical ministry, and in areas they say that conservative estimate would be that 10,000 people have been brought into the Christian church and not second, third generation Christians. Well, imagine the light that's been going out with these people in the fervor of their first love, evangelizing towns and villages, suddenly that light is snuffed out. No longer free to go to towns and villages, but to meet secretly.

21:20 Instead of being able to gather a crowd and preach to a hundred, you may have to scheme and plot for a week to get an opportunity to slip a track to one person. Well, in that sense, you see, Satan has been squelching that light. That's a real triumph. But even that triumph is part of the overall conquering purpose of God, because God will take that suffering to do what?

21:44 To answer the prayer of Christ that those believers be purified. 1 Peter chapter 4. Think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you. But he says rejoice, because God will take this very trial to carry out His purposes in your sanctification.

22:00 Having allowed the liberty long enough to call in the role of His elect that could only be called in through the liberty of free preaching, God is saying, now I have some other sheep that I'll gather, but now the main focus of my work in the church here is to purify it. Having extended the reign of Christ, I will now intensify the work in the individuals who've been brought in. That's the sense in which I meant that to grow. So the victories are over the people of God, over the witness of the church.

22:31 When an individual man who, like the Apostle Paul, who's preached in established churches, he's thrown in prison, there's a sense in which that's a triumph of the devil. To shut his mouth. But now that very triumph has been turned into victory by God by giving us those epistles that never would have been written, humanly speaking, unless Paul had been shut up in prison. This is the type of thing I'm talking about.

22:54 Does that help to clarify? Good. Yes, Bill? Pastor, in light of your principle, how do we put the languishing of the American church in the same goal frame?

23:07 Maybe explain your question a little more, Bill, if you will. Well, in the presence of all the light we have, the church, by and large, is in a very low ebb of real spiritual life. This is a triumph of the devil who has taken the occasion of our material affluence to do with us what happened to the Laodicean church. Because thou art rich and increased with goods.

23:30 And Laodicea was a very affluent town. We do some reading into the history of it and the rest. And so the devil's gained the victory. Instead of all of this being turned into fuel for greater love to Christ for his blessings and greater zeal to extend the gospel, much of it, thank God, not all of it, but much of it has been turned inward as the occasion of indifference and carelessness and spiritual sluggishness.

23:58 That's a very real triumph of the devil. But the Lord will overrule even that triumph to separate wheat from chaff. You see? So that his triumphs, though real, are never in isolation.

24:11 Even the triumphs of the devil are woven into the fabric of God's eternal purpose. That's why John is not at all embarrassed to write such words as these, even speaking of the coalition between the beasts. God did put it into their hearts to give them one mind. Well, that is strong language.

24:31 But that's the language of the Bible. Because he's God's devil at the end of God's chain. Now, when he bites the church, it means the blood that comes out of the leg of the victim is real. But at the end of God's chain, he was only permitted to bite the one God said he could bite and only as deep as God said he could bite.

24:51 That's why he could say, Behold, Satan shall cast some of you into prison, but don't be too upset about it because I'm in charge of things. See? Be not feared. And that's a tremendous thing to know.

Q&A: Consolation Amidst Global Betrayal and Suffering

25:02 You see, it gives us the ability to look realistically at the world in which we live, but at the same time to know the real situation is not all that you see. That's what these early Christians needed to know. They could see the Roman government bearing its fangs and sinking those fangs into them. What they could not see is that behind that was the activity of the mighty conqueror, giving power, giving authority, but ultimately bringing it all to its own indeterminition.

25:31 That's why we must be realists. We must face realistically. I mean, that to me is the absolute tragedy of the mindless, unscriptural naivety of the liberal constituency, who are shaping our foreign policy. I mean, Henry Kissinger's words the other day were laughable.

25:51 All these nasty words that Russia and Red China ought to be ashamed of themselves that they violated the treaty agreements of the Geneva Agreement. Well, of course they have. They've done it. It's documented hundreds of times.

26:07 In the history of international diplomacy, those committed to the principles of Marxist revolution, to the establishment of a communist state, have absolutely no confidence about treaties. Treaties have their roots in the peculiar mentality of Western civilization that has been influenced by some degree of sensitivity to biblical norms. Communists don't. And I can just imagine that in Peking, and in Hanoi, and in Moscow, they laugh up their sleeve.

26:41 So Henry Kissinger barks and says some nasty words. So what? We've got Southeast Asia, which is what we were determined to get all along, and we've got it. How did I get off then?

26:59 Yes?

27:03 There's a park, there's a small car that says William Johnson College on the back end of it. Some small vehicle. Listen, somebody here. Where is the park?

27:14 Is it just in the park or what? Somebody's got the, somebody's got it. Okay. Yeah, somebody's responding.

27:20 Yeah, good. Now, how did I get off? It wasn't off. It was related.

27:24 But I lost my...

27:28 Help me to get back. We're talking about why can we compare America to the church. Yeah. Okay.

27:34 All right. And you see, seeing this, I'd blow all the pieces if I didn't believe this. That God's allowed the woolly-headed thinking to affect our international diplomacy. I mean, I would just quit the ministry.

27:44 And I'd start marching on Washington. And in the name of the Lord, I might even start bombing some places. I mean, when you see this, the betrayal, the betrayal of our friends done so blatantly. And where are the Jane Fondas now, who are giving all of their sob story about the bombing, the poor innocent victims in North Vietnam?

28:07 Where are they? When right now, they've executed dozens, if not hundreds, of the key intellectual leaders in Cambodia. Where's their sob story? Where are the Ramsey Clarks?

28:20 I mean, I feel this thing, you see. And if I didn't believe what I'm telling you, I mean, I think I would just flip and in the name of the Lord, go around shooting some of these people. I think I'd almost get the feeling that, you know, I was God's David to go slay the Amalekites and then go after them, you see. But here's our consolation.

28:38 See, here's our consolation. That behind this warfare, though there are apparent and very real triumphs in the immediate situation, all of those triumphs are woven into the fabric of God's conquering purpose. Well, that's enough to make you say hallelujah. Now, it doesn't make you indifferent.

28:57 I can't bow over a meal and haven't been able to since South Vietnam and Cambodia fell in just a matter of days before the rest of South Vietnam goes. And think, what a privilege to bow in quietness over my meal. Lord, have mercy upon my brothers and sisters who no longer care. But that would lead you to absolute despair if you didn't believe, is Christ conscious of that?

29:22 He was in the midst of the church when He said to that church, behold, Satan is about to cast a spell. I know. And whatever little bit we feel, thank God, he who is in the midst of the land stands feels more than we do. And he hasn't forgotten his sheep and his lambs who were upon his heart from eternity.

29:41 He's caring for them in the midst of all of the heartbreak and the bloodshed and the terror right now. Well, you see, when you believe that, then that gives you courage to get on with the job that God's given you to do in your own circle and not be so utterly swallowed up with frustration and despair that you're paralyzed. And that would be a victory of the devil, wouldn't it? To paralyze us for our duty because of some temporary triumph God has allowed him in another situation.

Q&A: Interpreting Promises of Protection (Psalm 91)

30:08 Yes? I've been thinking about this and wondering how they would feel if they were reading or remembering the 91st Psalm, for it's, there's no evil but nigh thy dwelling. Yes. Now, is that a spiritual, your dwelling is in God?

30:21 Yeah. Is that the only interpretation you can get on that? Yes, I think it's the only ultimate and absolute. Absolute interpretation.

30:30 One principle that's been a great help to me, Grove, and I think it's a valid one. All of the promises of God to his people that touch temporal blessings, whether food, health, tranquility, all of these things, they are relative promises, qualified promises. The only unqualified promises are those which are spiritual and eternal. Now, many times, if we may look at them this way, many times, in the goodness of God, the promise is realized both in its external, qualified temporal fulfillment, in the midst of its unqualified,

31:14 unconditional spiritual fulfillment. For instance, do you follow me? No, I didn't quite follow you. All right.

31:21 No evil shall come nigh thy dwelling. Right now, we know the fulfillment of that promise if we're abiding under the shadow of the Almighty, both externally, temporally, and internally and spiritually. But there are times when, for other reasons, God withdraws the temporal, the conditional, fulfillment of the promise. It is then that we realize the richness, and many times not until then, that we realize the richness of the internal, the unconditional, the spiritual fulfillment of the promise.

32:02 See what I'm driving at? So now some believer who's seen his house burned to say, no evil shall come nigh thy dwelling, Lord, these men cannot affect me with that which is truly evil, for if I read my Bible rightly, the only real evil that can ever come to me is sin and its consequences. Suffering, God takes it within the orbit of his sanctifying influences to make me more like Christ. Poverty, to make me more conscious of true riches.

32:31 The opposition of the world, to make me more conscious that I'm a stranger, the soldier I have here, no abiding place. The scriptures teach abundantly there's not a thing that the world calls a tragedy that God does not use as a sanctifying influence in the lives of his people. So in a true sense, we're not just trying to find a clever out. No evil comes nigh the dwelling of the man who abides in the secret place of the Most High.

Q&A: Prayer in Suffering and God's Higher Purposes

32:54 Yes, Jerry? Pastor, I learned what you just said. If I was a father in Cambodia this morning, would I have any basis for taking something I may need at some time? I think you've got to do both.

33:15 You can pray the prayer of entreaty, Lord, if it please you. You have in the past been mindful of a widow who came to her last meal. Some widows died because there were many widows in Israel. And no doubt there were many widows who came to their last bit of meal and prayed, and God said, no, I have something better.

33:35 I'll bring you to the true bread. You find that in Hebrews 11. Some, by faith, escaped the edge of the sword and endured the very things which faith delivered others from. It says, some, by faith, did what?

33:49 Endured the very things which faith delivered others from. So I think the posture I think we all ought to take is there's a presumption in favor of God responding to the totality of our needs. When we get sick, I think our first approach should be, after asking God to search our hearts for any disciplinary action here, Lord, if it please you, bring healing. That ought to be the first direction.

34:09 That man now in Southeast Asia ought to pray, Lord, there's nothing left. If it please you, provide bread for this day. Give me wisdom to know where I may scrounge a few crumbs. Touch the heart of someone.

34:22 But, Lord, one thing I know, if you deny me the answer to this prayer, I know it is not because you do not love me nor because you are indifferent to my need but because you have higher purposes to serve in withholding the answer to that prayer. And there comes the tremendous test of this faith. Is that a valid response? Yes.

Q&A: The Shaking in Hebrews 12 and the End of the Old Economy

34:47 In the book of Hebrews, when it speaks about the things that are shaking your name, the things described by the king and the church, are they referring to a spiritual sense of the same work there behind the scenes? Is that really valid? Hebrews 12. Yes.

35:06 It's a kind of . Yeah. Here, again, is one of those sober warnings in which the writer for Hebrews does not come to this, speaking of all of the things that were attendant upon the administration or the enunciation of the old covenant, but he says, you've come to all the privileges of the new covenant. And he enumerates them.

35:30 Now he says, in the light of that, you have a great responsibility. Verse 25. See that you refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escape not when they refused him that warned them upon earth, much more shall we not escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven.

35:46 The voice then shook the earth. When was that? At the giving of the old covenant. Remember, the voice of God caused that there were mountains to shake and there was fire and smoke, etc.

35:57 Whose voice once, verse 26, shook the earth, but now he hath promised, saying, yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only but also the heaven. And this word yet once more signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken as of things that have been made that those which are not shaken wherefore receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken let us have grace. I think in the context what he's saying is that part of God's work of shaking to remove the old and to establish the unshakable is the casting down the breaking down of the old economy. The whole mosaic structure and everything pertaining to it.

36:35 That he might establish the church in its New Testament form which will ultimately issue in the new heavens and the new earth. It's one of the most powerful passages to show that there will be no reconstruction of any kind of Judaistic state in Israel or in the world with the temples sacrifices and all the rest. God is shaking all of that and right now in the midst of that and you see we as Gentiles we can't appreciate what this means for a Jew to know that the temple and temple worship and everything was to come to an end. That was an earth shaking event and God says right and I'm not only shaking earth but the very powers of heaven.

37:15 Because I'm building a kingdom which has cosmic dimensions and implications. Okay. Yes sir. Yes.

Q&A: The Binding of Satan in Revelation 20

37:35 Yes. And yet it seems as though that the activity of Satan's church increases more during the period of the church and it just seems to me hard to correlate the binding with the increased activity. Well I think Paul Mr. Fisher addressed himself to that and I'll simply reiterate what he said exegetically.

38:05 This is warranted. Notice carefully what he says. I saw an angel coming down out of heaven having the key of the abyss and the great chain in his hand and he laid hold of the dragon the old serpent which is the devil and Satan and bound him for a thousand years cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him that anyone have a Greek testament I think it's probably a Hina clause of purpose alright and it's called a clause of purpose in order that this was the intention of whatever preceded. Now notice what was the whole intention of laying hold of the dragon putting a chain upon him casting him into the abyss shutting it

38:49 and sealing it. Well the intent was that he should deceive the nations no more. Now I would question one of the elements of your of your premise Paul prior to the coming of Christ and that period in which our Lord was manifested in the flesh by his own mighty work showing his power over the devil both in death sickness demonic invasion of human personality and all the rest let's call this from the incarnation to the ascension during this period something happened to the devil

39:34 that had never happened before. Almost all of God's dealings were with one of the nations amidst the nations. Now occasionally in the height of her glory as under Solomon people from other nations would come hearing of the fame and no doubt would become believers. Occasionally God would send a prophet such as Jonah to one of the heathen cities but by and large the Gentile nations of the world were lying no gospel went.

40:07 There was no church throughout the world. Now when this vying occurs its specific intent is that the nation should be deceived no more and that's wonderfully manifest in the midst of all we're talking about now. There in the far east thousands of people have been brought into the kingdom of God in the past 30 years or so of activity right there but animism in the tribes peoples of southeast Asia Buddhism in some of the more educated and cultured areas there are now literally thousands who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ so that Satan has been bound that he could not

40:51 deceive those nations any longer the nations from which we came nothing but barbarians just a few centuries ago and yet the gospel came and so I think if we read this passage in terms of what the language says and don't read anything more into it than what it says precisely that we can see that this has been wonderfully accomplished and that right now if the Lord Jesus should return tonight he would have a people out of every kindred tribe and tongue and nation in a way that you couldn't by the largest stretch of the imagination say he would have had back 200 B.C. when even the Israel had just about been extinguished

41:35 now I don't ask you to buy it without looking at the product some more but I think from the standpoint of exegesis of the passage this is true now there seems to be the clear indication that toward the end of the gospel age when the Lord has called out his people that there will be this increased this violent upheaval of satanic activity as it were from the chain in the pit he's going to go to the final place of the lake of fire

Q&A: Living Faithfully in the Present, Not for Contingencies

42:10 yes you may well I think you've answered the question what does God call upon us to do

42:55 to live each day under the Lordship of Christ to the hilt doing the revealed will of God as found in scripture independence upon the Holy Spirit I'm so convinced that within three years I'm going to be part of the church that goes underground etcetera therefore I'm not going to spend any more time buying groceries from my mother on Thursday nights is it or Friday nights if you're still in the same pattern all right whatever the things are I'm going to just memorize Bible and all the rest wait a minute

43:40 I said that international communism was the final world power you don't know that it is and I don't know that it is God may come forth in such visitations of Grace and you saw what he did in Indonesia honey they were a hair's breath from falling under communism and God can do the same thing therefore you see all of this business of planning for certain contingencies as to bring forth suffering or if it's going to bring forth opportunities for gospel ministry we've never had before, what's the best preparation for both? To live to the hilt of the will of God for today.

44:25 Now, is it right for me today to memorize scripture for my own spiritual growth? Yes. Well, that's why I memorize scripture, not because I'm convinced I'm going to be in a prison three years from now and have no Bible. Is it right for me to train my children in the knowledge of God?

44:40 Yes. Well, I do that because it's a duty, not because of the threat of something. You see, God never, as far as I understand in the scripture, God never uses that thing as a dominant motivation. That's why this whole secret rapture theory and scaring people into making a decision because Jesus might come and they'll be left for the tribulation.

44:59 Where in God's name do you ever find that used as a motive to embrace the gospel? My Bible says, flee the wrath to come and that means hell. That's a legitimate motive to put a burner under a man's britches who's sitting too comfortably and begin to seek the Lord. Flee from the wrath to come, yes, but the whole idea that I might miss the rapture and then have to go through the tribulation and then I'll make it, that's pure second chance teaching.

45:24 That's an abomination. There's no second chance. You miss it when Christ comes back. You've had it.

45:31 No second chance. You've had it. In flaming fire, he'll take vengeance on his enemies. Therefore, be ready for in such an hour as you think not, the Son of Man will come.

45:41 And you see, that's the joy and the liberty. It's not irresponsible. It's not responsible for us to meet here with joy today while we have mingled grief for our brethren in Southeast Asia. That's the proper balance of biblical perspectives.

45:55 God sovereignly has put us here. He doesn't want us to act as though we were there.

46:02 And living to the hilt, the opportunities of the will of God now is the best insurance against any future contingency. The grace needed to be thrown in prison is not giving you now because you ain't in prison and God is not prodigal with his grace. I mean, why in the world should he give you ten pounds of suffering grace when all you've got is one half of an ounce of suffering? What would you do if it was sitting rock?

46:26 Now, many of us need ten pounds of grace to keep spiritually alive in the midst of luxury. Now, that's the grace you ought to be seeking from God right now. Lord, don't let your blessings become my curse. That ought to be your prayer now.

46:41 I pray, Lord, fortify me for the day when they're going to take my fingernails out with pincers. No, no. No, no. That's morbid.

46:50 That's unscriptural. You say, Lord, prepare me for this day when I've got it so easy I can get so spiritually sloppy and fat I'm not worth anything to you or to the church. That's the grace we need for today. And you pray for grace for that for today.

47:07 And you submit yourself to the disciplines to live in that situation and God will give us grace and wisdom to face whatever will come. And that's a wonderfully liberating thing. And again, that's biblical realism. That's not sticking your head in the sand.

47:21 And I'm convinced that's why, the only country in which the whole concept of the secret rapture and the Lord going to take us out of the thing before things get too hot is popular in our own country is, oh, the people love it here. You know, before things get too bad the Lord will take us out of it. Well, you go tell the saints there in Southeast Asia that now.

47:41 See how many popular Bible teachers will be the big names in the conference circuit telling the church, God will never let you people have it too bad. He'll take you out of it. You see how popular they'd be. You say, you're being a bit facetious, Pastor.

47:54 Well, I am. I believe, this is error that is crippling in its effect. I'm not quite prepared to call it heresy, but I'm coming closer to it every day the more I see the effects of it. But I'm not quite prepared to call it that.

48:07 But I am prepared to say it's serious error.

Q&A: Westminster Confession and Prophetic Interpretation

48:11 All right? Is that a satisfactory answer, Mr. Siller? Good.

48:15 All right? Yes, sir. Another, Mr. Dixon, our blessed interrupter.

48:20 All right. Go ahead. Three of you. D-R-V-7-2-9.

48:26 White Buick. Badly far. Walking chopper. Okay.

48:32 Very good.

48:34 Yes, Paul, and then we'll come back. Yes. In our understanding of chapter 17, I understand the and the grades and so forth. Yes.

48:48 I understand that to be the governments of this world, in the Westminster Confession, under the section on the church, Yes.

49:04 in our, in our confession in the back of our handbooks, it has been abridged slightly there from the old confession. But it says, there is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ, nor can the folk of Rome in any sense be the head thereof. In the old one, it went on to say, but he is the son of perdition, the Antichrist, and so forth. Could we understand from the confession, then, that the framers of the confession interpreted this passage to, not to be in the world governments, but to mean Romanism?

49:38 Yes. And I think there's a classic example, you see, of why we've got to be careful with this business of identifying it with some specific thing. We look back now and most responsible, sensitive, reformed exegetes are not prepared to say that this finds its epitome or its dominant fulfillment in papacy and in the Pope and in Romanism as a system. I think it is accurate to say, as a system, Romanism has evidenced many of the characteristics of Babylon with her wealth, with her mingling of the spiritual with the carnal and the temporal and the power, you know, when Christ said, get two swords, the Romish interpretation of that is the sword of the church,

50:23 spiritual authority, and the sword of the human government. If you don't bow before the one, we'll clobber you with the other. Well, it's not quite popular to do that in a pluralistic society such as our own. And that big word, pluralistic, simply means where you tolerate more than one kind of religion.

50:36 But in some places, she still wields both of those swords. But I think, again, it's an illustration of how we must exercise holy caution. And you see, there seems to be so little of that in these, Moody Monthly, you know, as I get Moody Monthly to keep my finger on what's going on in that segment of evangelicalism and you get these ads in there, so and so with your monthly prophetic newsletter, what is the latest development in prophecy with the common market and with the Northern Alliance and I'm just ridiculous. It's trying to use the Bible like a crystal ball.

51:12 And it is. That's not what the scripture was given for. Now, I'm convinced someday when we get into the presence of the Lord, the Lord will show us things that may have had some reference obliquely or more directly to these things. But our concern is not to be looking for that but, as I've tried to emphasize, this is showing the history of the church as the significant vein of historical development.

51:37 And everything that we've been that is said about this, this, and this has significance in relationship to the history and the destiny of the church of Jesus Christ. That's God's great concern from the dawn of human history. And this is not something new to me. Augustine was probably the first one to work out a philosophy of history in terms of the history of the church in his classic work The City of God.

52:01 And that has been reaffirmed and developed and re-enunciated and fleshed out by the perceptive thinkers since then. So I'm glad you made that point, Paul. It shows the best of men. Even those good and godly men who framed the Westminster Confession could err when they became a bit too specky.

Q&A: Problems with Millennial Schemes and Human Nature

52:21 All right. Bob, let's take some who haven't asked, all right? And if we still have time, we'll come back. Yes.

52:25 Hartmut?

52:31 Yes.

52:50 Yeah.

53:13 Well, they have real problems with that whole thing. You've got these unbelievers who are externally restrained from being too bad.

53:23 But at a certain point, that restraint is taken off and they all gather together and show what they really are. Well, man, that is a problem because everything the Bible teaches about man is externally the fruit of what he is internally. And the whole teaching of the Bible is make the tree good and the fruit corrupt. Or the tree corrupt and the fruit corrupt.

53:42 And how all this external restraint and how that can be blissful for me to dwell with people who are going around saying, I ain't gonna stop you, but in my heart I wish I could, but I'm being restrained by the right iron. Well, that's a great place to live.

53:57 Some guy comes up to me and said, I'm still going to pick your bucket. I'm being externally restrained by the right iron. That's your life to steal your wife. Be honest.

54:10 You say, I'm caricaturing. I am not caricaturing. If that is what is going to be, that's exactly what you've got. Nobody claims that those wicked people are regenerate.

54:20 Well, if they aren't regenerate, then the only motive, because God is not going to turn them into zombies, they're going to act by motives. Don't we all act by motives? Yes or no? A little psychology.

54:31 All right, we act by motives. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. So if the heart wants thievery, lust, and blasphemy, and there's an external restraint, can you imagine the hellish existence of all these people who are constantly externally restrained from acting consistent with their nature? And you tell me that that's blissful and a thousand years of it?

54:54 You can have it. I don't want it. It's too bad for me.

55:01 No, really. And some of you, if you hold that position, don't go out with your nose bent. You just begin to face that problem honestly. You begin to face it honestly in the light of what the Bible teaches about human nature and the rest.

55:15 And frankly, Mr. Hushins, I wouldn't want to live with that problem.

55:20 And to me, that's one of the biggest arguments against that scheme of prophetic interpretation it creates in surmounting all the problems for which the Bible has absolutely no answers because I'm convinced the Bible does not teach that which is the basis of the problems, namely that concept.

Q&A: Preparing for the Future and Critique of Prophetic Certainty

55:43 All right, we've got time for one more. Did someone else have a hand? Yes, Bob?

56:00 No, it all depends what we mean by prepare himself. And I think we've described what prepare ourselves is. Live to this day the hilt of the will of, to the hilt the will of God. Sufficient unto this day is the evil thereof Jesus said, take no anxious thought for the morrow.

56:17 So the whole concept of a Christian saying, well, more difficult time. Well, how do we know that in our lifetime, how do I know in my lifetime I will pass through what people are passing through in South Vietnam now? I do not know that. And anyone who says it is going to come has assumed the role of a prophet.

56:36 And he better produce the credentials of a prophet before I'm going to listen to him. And then when he produces them, I'll tell him where they came from because I believe the prophetic gift is seized. With the cessation of the apostles and the completion of canon. So that to me is the real problem, Bob, with the whole position.

56:53 We do not know how God has structured things. And there, imagine Christians who saw what was happening in Indonesia. Let's take that as a current example. All of the factors were that within a matter of weeks the comments were going to come.

57:08 But that's been how many years ago now since God turned that whole thing around? How many years? How many? All right.

57:15 All right. Now imagine the Christians who were preparing everything monetarily in terms of their physical provision, everything for that. And then the Lord reversed it. They not only looked foolish in the eyes of others, they had missed the opportunity to invest their time and energies and substance for the work that was at hand.

57:33 And that to me is the pervasive emphasis of the Word of God. And that, frankly, Bob, is one of the problems I have with Mr. Rush Tooney and Mr. North and everything that they represent in this area.

57:45 The whole idea that they are certain of certain things are going to come and the rest, I don't believe that that whole perspective is based on sound footing. And let me qualify by saying there's much that Mr. Rush Tooney is saying and doing and Mr. North, for which I'm deeply grateful to God.

58:03 But in this area, I believe they're outside the orbit of the Word of God. I really do. I believe they've jumped the traces of Scripture. And time's gone.

58:12 We've got to quit. All right, let's pray.