Is Conquering the Will of Your Child Biblical?

Introduction: Purpose of the Sunday School Forum

0:03 This adult Sunday school class was held on June 28, 1987, at the Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey. We're going to give you the opportunity this morning to raise questions relative to the Word of God or Christian practice of the Christian life. There may be a backlog of concerns that you've just been waiting to have the opportunity to introduce. And before we pray and ask God's blessing on our time together, just this word of instruction is in order.

0:36 This forum is for the members of our assembly to give them an opportunity to raise questions. And while we are certainly thankful for the visitors who are among us, we would appreciate it if you would give deference, show deference to the members of the congregation, and they know who they are. And they will raise the questions and hopefully help us in...

0:59 resolving them as we seek to turn to the Word of God. So let us then seek the Lord's face together, remembering especially this urgent request that has come from Australia, and then Pastor Bob and his ministry of just being among the people of God at Livermore today, and then for God's blessing on our class. Let us pray. Our Father, we have been vividly reminded again this morning that it is appointed unto men, once to die, and that even though we here and now as your people enjoy the great blessings of sins forgiven, the certain knowledge of our being with you in the glorified state in the age to come, we know that that last enemy has not yet been fully conquered. And we thank you that our Lord Jesus now reigns and shall continue to reign until...

2:02 that last enemy is put beneath his feet in that day of his glorious appearing in triumph and in power. And we remember, therefore, your dear servant Dennis Shelton and his wife, and our Father, if this cancer in the lungs is to be the means by which you will usher her into that intermediate state of being absent from the body and present with yourself, which is far better, then, O Lord, give grace to all of the loved ones who must watch the horrible and the grievous effects of this cancer take away the life of one beloved to them, and we pray that your grace will shine through the grief and the trauma and the pain. And yet, O Lord, we know that you are able to manifest your power, that power that will be the power of the Holy Spirit, that power that will be the power of the Holy Spirit, that power that will ultimately destroy death, that you can manifest that power even now in arresting sickness and deadly disease. And if it please you, we pray that you would put forth the arm of your strength and minister healing to Mrs. Shelton's body.

3:23 And then, our Father, we pray for Pastor Hogg as he seeks to be a brother born for adversity, to stand with one who... who has stood with him.

3:34 Oh, may their relationship as comrades in arms and as comrades under the yoke of Christ, may that relationship be deepened as they pass through this veil of suffering together. Then, our Father, we thank you for answered prayer with respect to Pastor Bob's ministry in the Philippines, for blessing him and Pastor Dixon, and now we pray that you would bring in safely to the West Coast and bless his day among your people there at Livermore. May his very presence be an encouragement to all of the saints in that place. And as he will no doubt be asked to give a report on what he has seen and heard in the Philippines, may their vision and their commitment to pray for that work be deepened as a result of his time among them. And then, may it please you to bring him home safely to us tomorrow, we pray that you would bring him home safely, full of joy and of the Holy Spirit, and full of renewed vision that in turn will be imparted to us with respect to your work in the Philippines. And now we look to you for your blessing upon our time together, thanking you as we have already done in our opening hymn and prayer for the privilege of another Lord's Day.

5:00 We thank you for your holy and infallible words, we thank you that we meet in a context of liberty and freedom. Do guide us as we would discuss matters of mutual concern together. So lead us that when we come to the end of this hour, we may each of us be convinced that all that was said was unto edification and unto your glory. Hear us then and answer us as together we plead these mercies through our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

5:40 Well, as we've indicated, the opportunity is yours to raise questions. I always come with one or two matters up my sleeve to introduce if there are no questions, but I think that's only happened on one occasion over the many years. So don't feel you must, to spare me embarrassment, raise a question even though you wonder if it is of any importance. But if there is a question, if there are questions of concern relative to any of the ministries that you've sat under, matters that have not been touched upon in the ministry, feel free to raise the question and we'll attempt to answer from the word of God.

Defining the Question: Conquering the Will Without Crushing the Spirit

6:21 Father, I wish I could have the luxury of sitting where you're sitting and have somebody up here prepared to address many of the questions that I have. Yes, Jonathan. We must seek to break the will without wounding or crushing the spirit. And I wonder if you could comment on that as a biblical concept and maybe to open up the two-sided aspects of that. All right. The question is in the general area of the discipline of our children that we often hear terminology, if not in these exact words, in words similar to these, that we must seek to break or conquer the will without bruising or crushing the spirit of the child. All right.

7:34 I think the best thing for me to do then is to turn around and begin to frame the matter in some other questions that will help us to isolate what we are particularly concerned about. Well, first of all, what is generally meant by the term we must conquer or break the will of the child? What do you think is understood by the use of that terminology? All right.

8:04 Paul? Rebellion. All right. The innate rebellion and desire to have one's own way.

8:15 Now, are you asserting then that a child has a native, a natural, a positive inbred bias to wrong? You...

8:30 Very good. Okay. Now, where did you learn that? Aside from having Jonathan as your son.

8:46 I learned that in the land, I had Jonathan as a father. But he is the father, but there is also the father, and I have many children. So, I really don't think the father is the father of the child, but I think that that is exactly the point. He is the father, but he is really the son.

9:08 So, in other words, whether that is true or not, knowing the truth is out there in the world, we have to be magnificent, we have to be a little bit less transparent about the truth, and then only then can we truly combine both of those. You know, but he isn't here. He is in the world, and he must be the father, just as we do. He must be the priest.

The Biblical Basis for a Child's Innate Bias to Evil

9:21 Why? Because he wants a child. of mankind by nature, none righteous, none that understands, none that seeks after God. They've turned aside.

9:31 They have together become unprofitable, none that does good, not so much as one. Throat is an open sepulcher. Tongues they have used to seat. Mouth full of cursing and bitterness.

9:43 Feet swift to shed blood. But could not that be a description of people who've grown up and learned how to be good sinners? Could this necessarily apply to children? The question has to do with the disciplining of children.

10:03 So is this the best passage to use with respect to children? I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just asking a question. All right?

10:17 All right. David's statement in Psalm 51.5 that when he was conceived, he was conceived a sinner. And what is the result of that being, of that reality of being conceived as a sinner?

10:31 Certainly this passage in Romans 3 describes all mankind and there's nothing in the context to indicate that children are exempted. And certainly further on in chapter 5 where Paul deals with the solidarity of the human race falling in Adam. We know that what is said here does indeed apply to all men and women regardless of age and race and sex and all of the rest. But are there other passages that clearly indicate that in a child specifically there is a positive bias to do what is wrong?

11:09 All right, Gary? All right. Now, you said in the book of Proverbs that's a pretty big book, 31 chapters. Can you tell us where that's found?

11:26 All right. I figured that's why you were generic. We don't deal in generic medicine in this class, only specific medicine. All right?

11:37 It's Proverbs 22 and verse 15. And you all ought to know the address. Proverbs 22 and verse 15. Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.

11:53 Now, according to the book of Proverbs, what is foolishness or folly?

12:00 Does it mean the desire to have a good time and to play games?

12:06 What is folly according to the book of Proverbs? All right, Chet? All right. It's the bent to do what is against the willpower.

12:14 It's the will of God against that which is true wisdom, which is the fear of God, doing the will of God, doing that which is pleasing to God. And this text tells us that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. So here is a clear text that indicates that within the heart, the seat of the nature of that child, there is bound up folly. And there is this pressure and predisposition in the direction of what is wrong.

12:46 And that will find expression, of course, in the will setting itself to do what is wrong, to make wrong choices. All right? Some other passages that clearly indicate that the state of the child is indeed that which Mr. White has described.

13:05 All right? Yes, John?

13:09 All right? Want to quote that for us?

13:18 All right. Psalm 58. The wicked are estranged from the womb. And it speaks of their going astray and being deceptive even from infancy.

13:31 All right? Any other texts that clearly teach this?

13:40 What about our Lord's clearest statement of where all sin in all of its forms comes from?

13:48 Mark chapter 7. That's right. Mark chapter 7. And you have the parallel passage in, I believe, it's Matthew 15.

13:55 But Mark chapter 7. Notice our Lord's words. Mark chapter 7 and verse 21. For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetings, wickedness, defeat.

14:22 How is it that children are such masters of deception? Well, for from within, out of the heart. They have a built-in teacher. Lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing.

14:33 Oh my, how children can rail, speak abusively to one another, about one another. And they seem to have a built-in teacher. Pride, foolishness, all these evil things proceed from within and defile the man. All right.

14:48 I'm sure you could bring forward many other passages. But here, we've established from the scriptures then, contrary to the modern psychology, contrary to most modern educators and all of the rest, the child has a positive bias to evil that is inbred. It is there from the moment of conception. And the only answer is theological.

15:14 It is not sociological. It is not psychological. It is theological. And we must dare to take our stand on that issue, no matter how much we're considered to be puritanic or any of the other pejorative words, words that may be used to describe us.

The Biblical Mandate for Disciplining a Child's Will

15:31 All right. Now, that being so, then the will, the chooser of the child, will often want to make choices in the wrong direction. Now, what are we to do with that? And we haven't forgotten Jonathan's question.

15:45 We're trying to respond to it responsibly. Shall we then take that will and break it? Conquer it? Shall we simply try to redirect it?

15:56 Do we have the power to sanctify it and transform it? What are we to do then when the will of that child is determined to walk in a path that is wrong or a path that is evil? Where in the scripture do we learn what we are to do with respect to that child's will? Someone had a hand raised over here.

16:19 Yes. All right. All right. All right.

16:27 Proverbs chapter 22 and verse 6. Train up a child in the way he should. Go. Now, there's a problem of translation.

16:40 You'll find the marginal reading of the 1901. Train up a child according to his way. And there is a debate in terms of precisely what that means. So that's a text we don't want to put too much weight upon because it's one that is difficult to ascertain the precise meaning of the words.

17:01 Now, if the proper translation is train up a child in the way he should go, then indeed that would be a text that indicates that we have the responsibility by training to move the child's will in the right direction, even when natively he desires to have it move in the wrong direction. All right. Can you think of any other passages that address the issue then? All right, George.

17:42 All right. That in the whole passage dealing with the fatherly chastening of God with reference to his children that God's dealings with us are to form the pattern of our dealing with our children. And there are parallels and the point that George is made making verse 9. We have the fathers of our flesh to chasten us and we gave them reverence.

18:05 How much more should we rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits and live for they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed good to them. And the inference being that they chastened us to bring us into subjection to their will, which will they believed was in our best interest and chastening was a means by which they regulated our wills. All right. Other passages.

18:36 Yes, Beth. And then back on the last row. All right. That right.

18:45 Proverbs 29 and verse 15. The rod. And the reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself causes shame to his mother. One of the most powerful and devastating text on the whole philosophy of self-expression modern education, modern psychology would say a child left to himself shows for the wonders of his potential, but the scripture says a child left to himself.

19:23 Causes shame to his mother. It is the rod and reproof that give wisdom and how do they give wisdom by forcing the child to take right choices and bringing punishment when they've made wrong choices that there might be an added incentive in the future to choose what is right in order to avoid the certain punishment that will come if they choose the way of wrong. All right. Yes, another passage that.

19:52 No. All right. Yes, Paul. All right.

20:04 Proverbs, 1918. Chasing by son, seeing there is hope and set not by heart on his destruction, indicating that if he is not chastened, leaving him to go his own way and follow his own inclinations, the wrong will lead to destruction and failure. Then to govern his will with respect to his choices is to result in contributing to his destruction. The next text Paul was 1324 Proverbs 1324.

20:47 He that spareth his rod hateth his son, but he that loves him chastens him chastens him betimes or diligently so to spare the rod to refuse to bring the correct. The action necessary to punish wrong to guide the will into the right is a manifestation of hatred to one's child. Now, I am one that I think over the course of all the years that he's been on television. I have only even seen two or three times Phil Donahue, but in the kind Providence of God.

21:28 The other day, I watched for about eight minutes and a program dealing with the whole matter of child discipline and that's all I could stomach. That's all I could stomach. My wife will tell you. She heard me shouting things down in the family room and wondered what was going on because here he had the professionals the PhDs and the so-called experts and the way he was seeking to influence the millions that watch him was in a way that would say that any kind of physical.

22:05 Spanking whatsoever was a manifestation of ill treatment to the child and could only result in the child's detriment and the detriment of society. It was a horrible aggressive blatant attack upon every single passage. We've read this morning out of the word of God blatant blatant not even subtle and one poor woman who was a teacher who believed. In in disciplined and restrained but principled spanking.

22:40 She was just battered and buried by Donahue and the so-called experts to the point where that's where I just plain got angry. The way they ganged up on that poor woman who without having a biblical basis yet in common Grace had come to understand some of these principles. All right. And then the last passage Paul was 2314 of.

23:06 Proverbs we could back up to verse 13 withhold not correction from the child. Now you see people that say well correction just means redirection and diversionary tactics. You don't necessarily have to spank and there are Christians who take that position. They say there must be discipline.

23:30 There must be training but no spanking is necessary. I don't know how in the world they could live with a passage like. This withhold not correction from the child for though thou beat him with the rod he shall not die though thou beat him with the rod he shall not die thou shall beat him with the rod and shall deliver his soul from hell. Now how in the world by any stretch of imagination someone can say that the rod has no place in the biblical.

24:07 Doctrine of. Training and discipline is beyond me. One must completely twist the scriptures and deprive them of any meaningful communication of the mind and will of God. Now I am not saying nor does the Bible say that the only form of discipline and training is the rock.

24:28 The Bible clearly teaches and God is the great pattern in this. There are other forms of discipline. God withdraws the light of his countenance as a form of discipline that his children. God withdraws privileges.

24:41 He says if you don't obey me I'll shut up the heavens. I'll take away your crops. I'll withhold the early and latter rains. There are other forms of discipline granted but to say that other forms can be the substitute for and a negation of the necessity of the disciplinary action of the rod is to go beyond the scriptures.

25:04 All right. I think we've had enough of the scriptures now to demonstrate two fundamental building blocks. Excuse me that must be laid if we're going to deal with this question. Number one the nature of the child that there is a positive bent toward evil and that in dealing with that positive bent to evil for the development of the child even for the salvation of the child's soul there must be discipline and discipline in terms of the application of the rod of correction.

Illustrating the Conquering of the Will

25:40 Now the question is if the discipline is to be effective obviously then it must conquer the child's will. Let's put it in a very specific situation. Well you give me an example from your own parental experience one in which the child's will was set upon doing something that you knew it shouldn't do and you had to conquer its will so that the child did not do it. Can you think of some examples of this.

26:08 Sense. When your parents were last visiting they told me a story about your sister. Not my sister. Oh that's fine.

26:18 Just as long as it wasn't about me. All right good. You have leave to continue. He said he was such a good little boy but your sister it took her one time two and a half hours so she dropped a button or something and she will not pick it up and she said she had to stand up for two and a half hours so she picked it up.

26:38 Yes that's right. My sister Joyce. My older sister. I love to tell her my own relatives.

26:45 I believe she had dropped. I don't remember that it was a button. I thought at least in the story as I remember it that it was a Kleenex that she had deliberately thrown on the floor and my mother said to her Joyce pick it up. And she stood there and said no.

27:06 All right. Here was a conflict of wills. She knew what the will of my mother was with respect. To picking up that Kleenex.

27:13 Her will was saying no way Jose. And my mother's will was saying yes. She was saying no. Two and a half hours and I don't know how many spankings later the little chubby hand of my sister Joyce picked up that handkerchief.

27:30 Now there was a clash of wills. Now in that instance there was many parents who would have said oh that's a silly stupid little thing. Don't. I mean just.

27:42 There was a diversion there. Uh uh. The testimony of my own parents is that with all ten of their children with most of us there were about a half a dozen issues in the first two years of our development where we planted our flag and our wills came into a head on collision with their will and had they not seen those issues through to a resolution they doubt that our wills would ever have been conquered. But our wills were conquered as children.

28:12 I no more would dream of saying the word no to my mother or father when a directive had been given than I would have dared to give out a string of ten four letter words. It never entered my mind to dare to do it. Now I never had bruises on my body. I never was beaten in a way that anyone could see that I was an object of child abuse.

28:42 I never felt insecure. I never felt like I was a child. I never knew what I was for. I never knew what I was for.

28:46 I never knew what I was for. I had no love. I had a life. I always knew I was love.

28:51 But I knew in my home there was one will. And it wasn't mine. Somebody else was calling the shots. You see.

28:55 And this instance that St. Pauly has mentioned, and I thank God for this because I know many of you don't have that legacy. You don't have it. But I pray God you'll pass it on to your kids.

29:08 I pray God you'll pass it on to your kids. But our wills were conquered. conquered, not diverted, but conquered. Even up until teenage years, I can remember, and I'll tell an incident on myself now, in this context of the more intimate nature of our class. I was old enough to know that in one year's time, I'd be playing football up in the high school. And we didn't go to high school until the 10th grade. We had junior high school, 7th, 8th, and 9th. And you could only play junior varsity football in the 10th.

29:42 I don't care if you were O.J. Simpson. No sophomore ever played varsity, only juniors and seniors. And we were state champs about every third, second, third year. If we weren't, the coach got threatened with getting fired, and it stirred him up, and he was there for some 25 years. So it showed that they produced good football teams year after year after year. But anyway, I was old enough to be looking forward to that, and I had all my heroes of the varsity team. And Saturday was the day I had to scrub both the kitchen floor and the bathroom floor.

30:19 During the week, I had to scrub the kitchen floor as well. That's back before Armstrong's no-care was invented. And they had to be scrubbed and waxed. And I can remember a given Saturday thinking I'd go off to the football game and get away without scrubbing the kitchen floor.

30:37 And I started out the door, and my father said, where are you going? I said, I'm going to the football game, Dad. He says, oh, my God. I'm going to the football game. I said, no, you aren't. I said, why not? He says, you have to scrub the floor. I said, oh, but Dad, I can do it later. I cried. And he said, look, son, you can cry till your tears wet the floor, but until you scrub it, there's no football game. End of discussion. He said, that's humiliating. No, it wasn't. I bless God for that kind of consistent determination to conquer my will. Right up until I went off to college. There was no magic or magic or anything like that. I had no idea that at age 18, suddenly, now, if I was under the roof, they no longer had control over my will. Where do you find that in the Bible? Where

31:24 in the Bible does it say at age 16, 17, or 18, suddenly, you lose your responsibility to conquer the will of your children if they're still under your roof? I'd like to see proof of that from the Bible. I've yet to see it. I don't see it in the Bible. So this whole concept, then, of the conquering of the will is a biblical concept. And it's one that must be implemented. It must be implemented with untiring consistency. There are times when you'd love to have somebody else take over the job. It's wearisome. But it must be done. It must be done. And with some kids, it takes this amount of pressure to conquer their will. With some, it takes that much. And so there's no standard little

32:16 formula that you can have. Some of the kids, just a look. I've met people that had every reason to believe them when they say their will was conquered by their parents who said they never, never once even had to be spanked. God so put them together, psychologically, emotionally, and in common grace, that just the thought of being spanked was enough. And all the father and mother had to do was snap a finger and look at them, and they were pliable. And I had no reason to doubt them. And subsequent life history manifested that they had a will that was conquered. Others, they maybe have to be spanked once, twice, ten, fifteen times on a given issue. The issue itself may be as inconsequential as picking up that little piece of Kleenex. But there's a clash of wills, and the will must be conquered. All right? Any question now on these two points before we come now to the point that Jonathan's question really took?

The Lord Jesus as the Pattern of Submission

33:19 If this is our duty and we are to conquer the will, then is it right to talk in terms of conquering the will without breaking the spirit? And if so, what is the basis for that and how do we do it? But any question on what we've established thus far? Any additional comments?

33:35 I thought of the passage that the Lord was in subjection to his parents. That was after what? Age 12? Yes.

33:40 So within his teenage years, the Lord be set up. Very well. Very well, very well. All right. Thank you so much.

33:50 Very good point. Luke 2.52, that after the incident in the temple, it says he went down to Nazareth, and the only description given of those 18 silent years is these words, and he was subject unto them. He was subject unto them.

34:09 So for that period into his teenage years, right up into manhood, because then in the next chapter we find him age 30 coming forth for his public ministry. All right, so our Lord then is the great pattern of one who was subject unto parental authority. And here, of course, they never had to spank him. He had no positive bias to wrong, and yet he is the great pattern of the child being in submission to the parent.

Defining 'Breaking the Spirit' Biblically

34:40 All right, any other comment on these first two building blocks before we come to this next part of the question? All right, let me throw out this question then. What do you think is meant when people say, we must conquer the will by discipline, but we must not break the spirit?

35:03 What do you think is meant by that terminology? We must not break or crush the spirit.

35:12 Anybody got any idea what's meant by that terminology? Yes, Cynthia?

35:19 Pardon? All right, Ephesians 6.4. And ye fathers, provoke not.

35:36 Your children to wrath. And I imagine, Cynthia, you're bringing forward this verse as an illustration of what it would mean to break the spirit, would be so to discipline and chasten the children with unreasonable or unexplained or wrathful forms of discipline that we would provoke them unnecessarily to wrath. All right? Someone else.

36:05 What do we mean when we use? The terminology. We don't want to break their spirits. All right, Dan?

36:16 All right.

36:18 Parallel passage in Colossians 3.21. They may not lose heart. I think they will lose heart.

36:28 Losing that fight. Losing that ability to go on. All right. In Colossians 3.21, and I only repeat it so it's picked up on the tape.

36:41 Fathers, provoke not your children that they be not disgusted. Encourage that they be not disheartened. There's the picture of someone who's in a disciplinary framework that takes the heart out of them. That takes all of the natural, what we might say, spunk and initiative out of the child and so disciplines him as to batter him into a little glob of inert childhood.

37:12 Afraid to look. Afraid to speak. Afraid to act. Afraid to act.

37:17 Withdrawn from people. That kind of a horrible situation that some of us have seen with our own eyes, even with animals. You see that, don't you? Do you know the difference between a disciplined animal and a crushed animal?

37:31 You've seen those dogs and mainly dogs. Cats are such weird creatures. I can't figure them out. But they are.

37:42 Well, I won't give you my theories about cats. But. You've seen those dogs that when they see a stranger, you come into the house, they immediately, their eyes are bright and they come up to you and they lick your hand. They just think you exist to pat their head and all the rest.

37:58 But all the master of the house needs to say is, Hi-do, sit. Boom. Down on his haunches he goes. You see the will is conquered, but the spirit of that dog is not broken.

38:07 Loves people. Figures that people's hands are to stroke his head and to tickle him under the chin and scratch his ears. His spirit is not broken. But his will is conquered.

38:18 Now, you see that same thing with children, don't you? You're around children. If they get in the presence of adults and they draw back and they're set. And you sense that they look upon adults as those who batter them, who bring nothing but harm and bruising and negative things to them.

38:37 And their spirits are broken, whereas children who are properly disciplined feel comfortable with adults. They've learned to relate to adults as those who give them positive direction, who keep them in line, but who are affectionate with them, who love them, who show their love, who manifest their love to them. And so this whole matter of the broken spirit, we see it illustrated in animals. And I think it's better seen and observed than probably formally described, though the Colossians 3.21 passage certainly does point in that direction.

39:13 Can you think of another passage? Another disciplinary passage that gives us at least some hints about what a broken spirit is.

39:25 All right, go to the Hebrews passage again, all right? Because here under God's discipline, remember what we're exhorted not to do? Two things we can do when God disciplines us.

39:41 We can regard God's chastening too lightly, verse 5 of Hebrews 12. Or we can be cast down by it. Regard not lightly. Not lightly the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art reproved of him.

39:59 And so then he gives the picture in verse 11. Though chastening is not presently joyous, but grievous, it afterwards yields fruit. So here's the person whose spirit is being broken by the chastening, verse 12. His hands are hanging down.

40:16 His knees are palsied. And he's not even able to walk in a straight line. There's the picture. There's the picture of the man who's being broken excessively by his discipline.

40:27 And God says, no, lift up the hands that hang down and the palsied knees make straight paths for your feet. So perhaps it's easier to talk around and illustrate and show analogies of the broken spirit than it is to give a formal definition. Unless someone has one floating around in his head and would like to share it with us, we'd welcome it. Yes, Ron?

40:57 Yes, where they just lose all heart and become totally passive. They lose all heart and become totally passive. All right? Now, the question is, is this then a biblical concept that we are in our discipline to conquer the wills of our children but not break their spirits?

Analogies of a Broken Spirit: Animals and Human Experience

41:27 Is that a biblical concept? That was Jonathan's question. It was analyzed about 40 minutes ago.

41:34 Is that a biblical concept? Anyone willing to stick his neck out and affirm that it is?

41:42 All right? Paul? The spirit of faith, but when the heart is sad, the spirit is broken. And I would take that to be a negative thing that should be avoided.

41:59 The heart is sad, the spirit is broken, that should be avoided. Yes. All right, an excellent text. Proverbs 15, 13.

42:06 A glad heart makes a cheerful countenance, but by sorrow of heart, the spirit is broken. And whenever the Bible speaks of the condition of a broken spirit, apart from the broken spirit that's attendant upon true repentance, a broken and a contrite heart thou wilt not despise, it doesn't speak of it as a condition to be desired. It speaks of who can bear a broken spirit. It says a man can take all kinds of physical pain, but if his spirit is cheerful, he can ride it through, but once his spirit is broken, then he's had it.

42:45 So the whole teaching of Scripture is that the breaking of the spirit in the sense of the crushing of the human spirit to the place where it loses all hope, where it loses all sense of expectancy, of all looking forward to the next hour, to the next day, that that is not a condition to be desired and therefore a condition to be avoided in the discipline, of our children, for again, we are to be like God. And in God's discipline of us, He does not discipline us to break our spirits, that is to take away from us all bright hopes for the future, but rather to even increase those hopes by bringing our wills into line with His will, our perspectives into line with His perspectives. All right, other verses or concepts or comments that you want to make on this matter. Yes, Pastor Nichols. Several thoughts.

Biblical Affirmation and Further Insights on Avoiding a Broken Spirit

43:48 First of all, with reference to the breaking of the spirit and what it means, there are various other passages in the Old Testament and the New Testament, which I think are helpful in understanding it. It's not exactly talking about dealing with children, but it is talking about excessive punishment, and one of the places in the Pentateuch, I don't remember the reference either, because...

44:15 I bring my strongs for that reason. Okay. Well, it's talking about a limitation of 40 stripes, which was in the Jewish law, that when a person was being punished, you couldn't beat him with more than 40 stripes. The reason being, lest your brother become odious unto you, and lest he be despised in your eyes.

44:37 Yes. Deuteronomy 25 and verse 3. All right. Deuteronomy 25.

44:46 Deuteronomy 25 and verse 3. Forty stripes he may give him he shall not exceed, lest if he should exceed and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. All right. That this creates an unnecessary negative attitude to the one who's imposing the discipline.

45:13 Well, the impression I got was that the one who was being disciplined would seem vile unto you. I see. That's the way I understand the text. That his work is destroyed.

45:24 He's a vile thing. You beat him into the ground. You hit him again and again and again and again. That this excessive punishment destroys the work of the person punished.

45:34 And what it does is it destroys a person's proper sense of their own wholesomeness and dignity as creatures made in God's image. And this is why they go around constantly discouraged, is because they have no proper wholesome sense of their own self-worth. They're worthless creatures that are good for nothing but to be beaten. I think that's one of the fruits of it.

46:01 Yes. Of a broken spirit. It destroys your own self-worth. Along with that, it destroys a sense of your own value.

46:10 As the Lord Jesus says, you are of more value than many sparrows. You're not worthless. And you're not worthless in God's eyes. You may be unworthy and sinful, but you're not worthless to God.

46:22 And a child should never have the sense that he's worthless to his parents. Valueless. And yet excessive punishment will do that. Good point.

46:31 The other thing is it'll destroy initiative. It will destroy any legitimate willingness to launch out on your own with thought and creativity and ideas that comes out of this. The other thing it will destroy is a sense of independent judgment, which apparently is noble according to Acts 17, the Berean spirit. For these are more noble than those of Thessalonica.

47:00 They received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily whether these things were so. And that can also tend to, you know, don't you ever question anything I say. I'm a parent, therefore I'm always right. Everything I say is correct.

47:15 Don't you ever dare question or you're a rebel. Well, then I'll spank you. I mean, that kind of stuff destroys a proper independent judgment and an initiative and a sense of self-worth. Those are the fruits of my thinking of soul and spirit.

The Manner of Discipline: Self-Control, Explanation, and Cultivating Judgment

47:33 All right. I think one of the things that we can see that grows out of that is that whenever we are engaging in discipline, it must never, never be in any other context than one of self-control. Self-control done in the fear of God and as the child is able to receive it with explanatory comments from the word of God. Why must Daddy spank you for this?

48:02 Because I disobeyed. And why must Daddy spank? Because God says you must. Do you think Daddy enjoys spanking you?

48:10 No. Why? Because you love me. You think it hurts Daddy to hurt you?

48:15 Yes. But why must Daddy hurt you? Because God says you must. You see?

48:19 And you explain that this is not a matter of attacking their worth. And never then must you say, You dummy! And you strike out with your hand while you use language like that. I pity the child who's been brought up in that context.

48:37 Some of us pastorally have had to sort out the people who were called dummy, dummy, dummy every time they were beaten. And no wonder then. They have no sense of their own worth, no sense of initiative. And then, as Pastor Nichols has indicated, and some of you, many of you, have not yet faced this, and yet you're going to, it'll be altogether too soon, that as your children are growing, you must more and more give verbal explanation and enter into reasonable interchanges with your child as you're guiding them to know why this path is wrong.

49:15 It's enough for a ten-month-old who's begun to walk around simply to know that they are not to touch a fragile object in the living room. And you don't need to go through a three-hour explanation as to the difference between fragile and non-fragile objects. But as the child gets older, you have a responsibility to teach them the processes by which you discern right and wrong. That's a part of maturity according to Hebrews chapter 5.

49:45 Full-grown men are those who, by reason of use, have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. And you should then encourage in the child that there is a difference, as Pastor Nichols has indicated, between a legitimate question, Daddy, I'm prepared to do what you've told me because God's put you as the Daddy, and I'm to obey. But may I ask why such and such? And if you just simply respond to that by saying you're never to ask that question around here, you're discouraging that critical, proper development of a critical spirit.

50:23 Now, there may be times when you will have to say there is not time and this is not the place, but as soon as it's convenient, I'll be glad to. But for now, you do what Daddy's told you, you see? And you let them know that this is not the time and the place, the same way in a good husband-wife relationship. I hope you don't just bark orders to your wife and think that that's what it means to be head of your wife.

50:48 You talk matters through, you take her through the process of decision-making, include her perspectives, her feelings on the matter, and then you arrive at a decision and you administratively implement it. But there may be times when you're not able to go through all of that, and you'll just have to say, Dear, as soon as I'm able to, I'll explain why, but this is what we're doing. Yes, Pastor Nichols, but honey, this is what we're doing. Before God, this is a decision I'm responsible to make, I'll explain later.

51:21 And God will see to it, I'm convinced, in any good marriage, no matter how good the marriage is, that once in a while you'll have an issue like that, just to make sure that the wife really understands the principle of submission. Because the principle of submission is not tested if your decision is by mutual consent. Right? It's only when there's not consent or enough understanding for consent that she demonstrates I'm prepared to submit even though I don't understand the reasons.

51:53 So I'm convinced that in any healthy marriage there will be, periodically, a little test along the way so a wife can be honest before God because a godly wife wants to know whether or not she's really submissive, and the Lord will engineer things enough so that she'll know whether she has the principle in her. But that does not mean that it is not the husband's responsibility to cultivate in her a creative and inquisitive mind. Suppose God takes him out of the picture by death. Suppose he has to be away in Australia for two weeks in meetings and little kids are still at home.

52:29 If he has not trained her how to make decisions and to guide her into decision making, she'll be utterly paralyzed to carry on the administration of that home. Well, likewise, there are children who were brought up very well behaved, but when they got into the years of discretion where parents should have begun to explain to them the process by which they arrived at the decision that this was wrong and this was right, they never did it. So once they get out of the home, anything they face that is not on the list of things that were right and wrong, they've become legalists in a sense, who only have their checklist of right and wrong, and they're not armed with the tools to make intelligent, mature, moral, and ethical decisions. And that's a tragedy. And then you have to try to build into those people after the fact. So, coming all around full circle because our time has gone to Jonathan's question, I think there's a general consensus that the statement to the effect that we need to conquer the will of our children and not break the spirit does indeed reflect, Jonathan, biblical concepts, many biblical concepts, and hopefully we've given enough materials to illustrate the difference between a mere conquering of the will or I mean a proper conquering of the will without breaking of the spirit and even in the conquering of the will, the manner in which that is done

Conclusion: Conquering the Will Without Breaking the Spirit

53:58 and the directing of the will varies with the development of the child, with the particular temperament of the child, and a host of other things that we don't deal with these things in any kind of a wooden, mechanical way. And that's why you want to be very, very careful of books on child training and child discipline that are primarily anecdotal and do not deal with the fundamental biblical principles which must be worked out in a tailor-made way in terms of all of these variables. Okay? Well, our time is gone.

54:33 Let's pray that God will give to every parent grace and wisdom to know how, by the strength of God, to conquer the wills of their children without breaking their spirits. And surely this is enough to keep many of us busy at the throne of grace on behalf of one another. Father, we're so thankful that we have your word as a lamp unto our feet and a light to our pathway. And again this morning, we stand amazed that there is no question that we can raise with regard to life and practice but what your word is indeed a lamp unto our feet and a light to our pathway.

55:16 And we who are parents are conscious that there are times in our past when we have not been what we ought to have been as parents. We have either been overly indulgent or excessively harsh in our discipline. We have either gone too far in explaining matters that needed no explanation or in failing to understand to give a rational and reasonable explanation for our judgment. Oh, Lord, forgive us of all of our parental sins.

55:50 And then we pray for grace, particularly for the many parents sitting here this morning who are still in the process of molding their children. Gracious God, give them wisdom. Oh, give them that wisdom that you have promised to those who, conscious that they lack it, seek it from you. Together we seek that wisdom from you.

56:16 And then, Lord, give us the moral fortitude and the sheer emotional strength. We think especially of those with many little ones, how days seem to come and go in which there's been nothing but one succession of challenge to our wills as parents. And we grow weary in well-being Oh, Lord, give help to every such parent that they may not grow weary in well-doing, knowing that in due season they shall reap if they faint not. Hear then our prayers and answer us.

56:54 For the sake of your dear son we plead. Amen.