Q and A / Discussion Session

Introduction and Book Recommendations

0:03 The Discussion 91 Reform Baptist Singles Conference Since I'm a man under authority this weekend, a man who's been my boss is sitting over there at the console and has instructed me to go ahead and to begin our time. And though we meet informally, and though the ministry of the Word is not pre-prepared and structured, it is nonetheless a matter in which we will be dealing with right and wrong and the will of God and what is not the will of God. And therefore, an awesome responsibility rests upon me and a responsibility rests upon all of us to recognize that our wisdom is ultimately in the Lord. The scripture tells us to cease from man whose breath is in his nostrils. And if we trust in the Lord with all our heart, lean not upon him. Lean not upon him.

1:01 Lean not upon him. And upon our own understanding, in all our ways, acknowledge him, that he would direct our paths. And what I'd like to do is to, first of all, make a few recommendations of some books and tapes that you may be familiar with. Some of you may not, but I think they will be of particular help with reference to some of the things that we've been dealing with.

1:23 And then we'll pray, and then we can start in with the questions. All right? A recent booklet by the Baptist Singles Conference Banner of Truth Trust, Behind a Frowning Providence by John J. Murray.

1:36 This is not the late Professor Murray, but this is a dear man whom I have known since 1967, a godly brother, pastor in the Free Church of Scotland. And he and his family were brought through a very dark providence in terms of the death of one of their children and out of the matrix of God's dealings with this man. And his family, he preached at one of the Leicester conferences in England at which I was ministering several years ago. And the sermon he preached on the providence of God in the midst of what we would call his dark dispensations of dealings with us was so helpful that he was urged to expand it and put it in written form. And the result is this lovely booklet, Behind a Frowning Providence, taken from Pauper's hymn, God Moves in Mysterious Ways, His Wonders to Perform, He Plants His Footsteps in the Sea and Rides Upon the Storm. And the phrase, Behind a Frowning Providence, He Hides a Shining Face. And I would heartily recommend this when you're struggling with emotions of grief and of fear and of wondering if God is good when unusually dark providences come upon you.

2:59 This is not a book. Dealing with, I would call, the little hangnails of Christian experience and an ingrown toenail. This is the kind of stuff we need when we find ourselves without an arm or a leg. And deep and dark providences come upon us.

3:16 I heartily recommend it to you. And I believe none of you will see me in the future if you have that opportunity and tell me that I overstated the worth of that book. And then, as I've interacted, as I've interacted with some of you this weekend, it's become clear to me that one of the doctrines that some of you need to get clearly established in your own hearts is the doctrine of adoption. Adoption is the apex, the crowning blessing of all of the blessings that God confers upon disinherited sinners because of their sin and gives to them because of the Lord Jesus Christ.

3:58 And I know of many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, and I know author in our day who has dealt more clearly and biblically and helpfully and pastorally with the doctrine of adoption than Dr. Sinclair Ferguson in his book, Children of the Living God. And if you've never had a good dose of the doctrine of adoption, I heartily recommend this book to you. And then one of the groups in England has taken some of the more useful works of John Owen and reduced them to their bare bones with a simpler vocabulary without Latin quotations and without some of Owen's sentences that run on for a page and a half strung together with hyphens and semicolons, and they've not destroyed Owen. I'm a great lover of Owen, and if anyone in the guise of helping to make Owen more accessible changed him into someone else, I would be very distressed. But they have done a great job, and his classic work, Volume 7, on spiritual-mindedness, is out in this form, thinking spiritually, and in the whole matter of developing the kind of mindset that is conducive to a stable emotional life, there's much material here that will be helpful to you. And then, isn't this a good, catchy, contemporary title?

5:23 Learning to be happy, you'd say. Well, surely a Puritan didn't write that. Well, he did not write Learning to be Happy. This originally appeared as a treatise called The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment.

5:39 That sounds more Puritanish. But again, the Puritans were realists. They were pastors, and dealing with their people, they sought to bring the Word of God to bear upon their real struggles, and people struggled with the tendency to discouragement, and to be morose, and heavy-spirited, and Jeremiah Burroughs' classic work, The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment, now comes out in this simplified version, Learning to be Happy. And then this still appears in Puritan form, though much more simple in its outline and clear, and my wife and I, last year, in our own devotions, read through this together, and found it to be very helpful, The Art of Divine Contentment.

6:24 Now, that does sound like a Puritan. Puritan title, The Art, The Spiritual Art of Learning Contentment. And it's based upon Paul's text, I have learned in whatsoever state I am therein to be content. And I think for some of you, particularly in a state of extended singleness, one of the most difficult things is finding, on the one hand, contentment in the state in which God has put you in the will of God, while at the same time, contentment in the state in which God has put you in the will of God.

6:55 And at the same time, having wholesome and holy aspirations to see your state of singleness terminated, not by death, but by marriage.

7:07 And frankly, frankly, the most attractive single man or woman to a spiritually minded member of the opposite sex is one who has found contentment in his or her singleness, and is living out his or her singleness to the hilt in the will of God. An antsy cat on the tin roof single, I would avoid like the plague. I hope you'll take the counsel. So you want to be more attractive to a man or to a woman in the right sense?

7:40 Then learn the art of divine contentment. It'll make you much more attractive to a spiritually minded single Christian man or woman. And then, as I indicated last night, I believe there are a number of factors that have, in great measure, emasculated this present generation of men and we hardly know what it is to be a Christian man. We lack in our national and political life, as well as in almost every other theater of human existence and social structures, models of manhood.

8:16 We have no Churchill who can stand in the midst of the rubble of London, and by his presence and demeanor in words, stir a whole nation, to rise to the occasion of the challenge of facing the German juggernaut. And we lack such models, and so often we have to look elsewhere for them. And I heartily recommend this series by Pastor Hofstetler on the Christian man, a series brought at our men's retreat in December. Hardly a week passes that I do not have some pastoral interaction with a man in our church who points to this weekend as a radical turning point, in his Christian life.

8:58 And then there's also a series by Pastor McDiarmid on a similar subject, available from the Trinity Pulpit, on Christian manhood. Excellent material, I heartily recommend it, not only for you men, but for you women. What are you looking for in a Christian man? Well, the qualities that constitute godly manhood, you ought to know what they are, and to look for them.

9:21 And then for those of you who, for the most part, must live out the greater part of your waking hours in a godless society, if you were not present to hear the series by my dear friend, Pastor Ted Donnelly, brought at the Southern Family Conference last year on the life of the prophet Daniel, I heartily recommend this series of tapes as setting forth Daniel as the model of a man of God living in a hostile society, and living in that society to the glory of God with a good testimony. And then for any of you who've not heard the series I brought a number of years ago, I only recommend them, not because I thought they were something so special when I gave them, but over the years I've met many people, even some at this conference, who have said that the series on a theology of singleness have been of great help to them, and if you've not obtained those tapes and listened to them, I would urge you to do so. Many things that we'll not be able to touch upon in this question, and answer session, and certainly would not have been the focus of the ministry of the word, you may find helpful. Well, those are some recommendations. We're not mandating that you won't get to heaven if you don't buy these things and read them or listen to them, but it may make your journey a little easier, and a little smoother, and a little safer.

Prayer and the Question of Subjective Peace

10:43 And we want to see you get to heaven as smoothly and safely as possible by the grace of God. Well, let's pray now and ask the Lord's blessing, as we take up some of the questions that have been submitted to me and others that you may wish to raise from the floor, and then one that I'm submitting myself, because there are some things that I want to say to you that I think will be helpful in an area that I'm sure is of relevance to all, if not all of you, most of you. Well, let's pray together. Our Father, we are deeply grateful for all that we have experienced, of your gracious presence with us during this weekend together. We thank you that this very room has become a Bethel to us, as your presence has been made manifested in our fellowship, in the singing of praise to you, in the prayers that together we have brought to you in the name of Christ, and in the ministry of the word, you have come to us, as it were, upon the wings of your own word, and enabled us to feel and to taste the powers of the world to come. O Lord, we acknowledge that this is all of you, that no man nor group of men or women

12:07 can bring these gracious visitations of your presence, but we thank you that you sovereignly grant them for our good and for your glory. We pray now as we would wrestle with some of the questions of general relevance and concerns, that the Holy Spirit by the scriptures would be our teacher. O Lord, help me to be kept from imbalance, from overstatement or understatement of your truth, that nothing would be said that would lead any of your children astray, and that each one of us would take whatever is said this morning, and in the spirit of the Bereans, search the scriptures to see if these things be so. May each of us, obey the injunction to prove, to put everything to the test, and to hold fast only that which is good. Bless us then in our time together as we wait before you and trust you for the aid of your spirit, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Now one of the questions is one that vexes every true Christian, sooner or later, and I'll read it as it is written.

13:30 How should the feeling of with inverted commas or quotation marks guide us in decision making? What if you do not have a sense of peace in making a certain decision, although all the facts would indicate that the decision makes sense, assuming it is not an issue of right and wrong? So you see what the question is. How much weight should we give to a sense of subjective peace in decision making?

14:04 And I'd be very surprised if my wife right now is not smiling. I'm not looking at her. But, yeah, she is. And I know what she's thinking.

14:15 Her mind is going back 32 years to a place in Wisconsin called Camp Chautek where there was a young woman who all the time was talking, I don't have peace, and she lived. Was I reading your mind, dear?

14:40 That's more contemporary. All right. Well, often whenever this question comes up and my wife is with me, we think of this dear girl. I've forgotten her name, but she followed us all over the campground.

14:50 What do I do if I don't have peace about it? If I don't have peace about it, everything had to have peace about it. And I can never read this question without thinking of that gal with her little thing. I don't have peace about it.

Distinguishing Subjective Feelings from God's Revealed Will

15:03 Well, it seems to me that there are several things that have to be sorted out in our judgment. Before we're ever going to be able to make a right decision about this subjective, elusive, mercurial-like thing called peace. It's sort of like a little ball of mercury, you know, try to put your finger on it and it squirts. And the first question we must ask is whether or not the course of action we anticipate is in keeping with the revealed will of God.

15:34 And the one who writes the question says, assuming it is not an issue of right or wrong. Let's put it in a concrete example. You're praying about purchasing a new car or a different car from the one that you now drive. Convinced that if you do not do so, you're going to be tempting God, that you're going to end up on the freeway or halfway to work in a backwoods road with the front end dropping out and with the tie rod scraping and a number of other things.

16:08 You've sought counsel. If you're not knowledgeable in mechanical things yourself, you've sought counsel from the men in the church and from a trusted mechanic and they all tell you that bucket of bolts ain't worth putting any more money into it. Get rid of it, get another car. And so you're seeking to act responsibly and you've gone to the consumer's guide and you've tried to see what car gets the best general rating as a used car or if you're contemplating a new car.

16:36 You've done all your homework and you've then gone to dealerships and there's one car that you like the color and the various options that it has. It's within the price range that you've already figured out before you walk into the showroom. Before the salesman starts telling you what you can afford, you've sat down and looked realistically at income and outflow. And you know that you can afford, if you're going to buy the car, that you can only afford so much per month and beyond that is to tempt God.

17:14 All of those things have been settled and at the end of the day, you come up to where there are two different cars, there's only $50 difference between them and one of them, the only real difference is you like the color more. And now you say, which one shall I buy? They both have good reputation for service and all the other factors are equal and yet when you think of buying that one that you like, you don't have, quote, peace about it. But it seems to me in a situation like that, you need to simply kick your subjective feelings in the eye and do what pleases you because the scripture says, delight thyself in the Lord and he shall give thee the desires of thy heart.

17:57 Who made you so that you like metallic blue more than you like a dark gray? The one car's a dark gray, the other one's a metallic blue, it's $50 more, but you like the metallic blue but you don't like the dark gray. Now who made you that way, God or the devil? Well, God did.

18:18 Well, do you think God's such a sadist that for $50 he wants you for the next five years every morning you come out to say, Yuck! What kind of a God would like us to do that? So if you have a, quote, lack of peace, there's no rationality to it, it's a totally subjective feeling, learn to ignore it and go ahead and buy the car that'll please you, the car you can afford. In issues like that, don't allow this subjective peace-o-meter to determine what you're going to do, because in terms of your temperament and makeup and many other factors, the devil can use that as a tremendous area of harassment upon your Christian life. Some of us were literally harassed by the devil for years because we had been taught that that peace-o-meter was some kind of a direct transfer of the will of God. And you'll get to the place where I did, where I'd stand in front of the refrigerator at night, should I or should I not have a glass of orange juice or a glass of milk? Is that gluttony?

19:28 Is that yielding to the flesh? I've had my three squares. I don't really need it, but I'd like it, but I don't have peace about taking it. I'm dead serious.

19:38 I'm not kidding you. It was tyranny. I couldn't make a decision about whether to take a glass of milk or a glass of oranges before I went to bed, because I was waiting for perfect peace. And once I saw that this was sheer nonsense, that this is not how God guides us.

19:54 He guides us by sweetly persuading our judgment by the word of God. And that's what Luther meant when he said love God and do as you please. Now that's what Luther meant. Do as you please within the framework of the law of God, for the Lutheran catechism does have a whole section on the Ten Commandments and the law of God.

20:14 So when he said love God and do as you please, he was not saying that in the sense of an antinomian, but saying it in the sense that God is not a narrow-hearted God who says for $50, I'm going to make you get the car that every time you see it, you go yuck, because that will teach you self-denial and that'll make a good disciple out of you. No, not at all. The Lord is happy when his children are happy. If you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children.

20:43 How much more shall your heavenly Father give good things to them that ask him? And in that case, the good thing is the car, the color of which, and the various options of which are pleasing and necessary to you. And in those things, don't put a lot of stock on your so-called peace. Likewise with the choice of jobs.

21:06 Several options are before you. You've weighed the options, you've weighed what your needs are, what your career goals are, what the various relationships would be, and you know you ought to work because God says, six days shalt thou work. And if you're in a single state, you know you must honorably provide for yourself. That is the law and will of God as revealed in the word of God.

21:31 Now, if God is pleased in his providence to have a job opportunity open before you and you are suited to that job and the job is suited to you, and there is no moral or ethical reason for you not to take the job, just to say, well, I just don't have peace about it. Well, what is this subjective peace? You see, it can be an area where we open our inner life to being harassed by the devil. And in most situations, we need to learn to ride over the so-called peace-o-meter.

Conscience, Faith, and Things Indifferent (Romans 14)

22:06 However, sometimes what people are talking about puts us in the area of Romans chapter 14 on things indifferent, and here another principle is vital. In this case, you had people whose religious background was such that certain foods were kosher foods and some were non-kosher and certain people were vegetarians and as a matter of religious conscience they could eat no meat. And now all these people are thrown together in the same church. And when they start showing hospitality to one another, it begins to create problems.

22:47 And so the apostle had to write to sort out some of these problems of what is called the adiaphora, that is, things indifferent, things that are not moral issues, such as whether I will keep this religious day or whether I will not keep the day. So Paul is giving a number of principles in Romans 14 through to Romans 15, 9 to help the church sort this thing out. Now then, he says, beginning in verse 20, the part that is relevant to our discussion, overthrow not for meat's sake the work of God. All things indeed are clean, howbeit it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

23:29 It is good not to eat flesh, nor drink wine, nor do anything whereby thy brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have to yourself before God. Happy is he that judges not himself in that which he approves, but he that doubts, is not damned. The old authorized version is too strong a translation.

23:53 He that doubteth is condemned if he eats, because he eats not of faith, and whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Now we're coming into an area where here are things indifferent. Here are two courses of action. I can or I cannot eat.

24:17 Now a man's background is such that his conscience has been so good and so conditioned, if I eat meat, I'm offending God. Now Paul is saying he comes into contact with those who are seeking to please God and they know, according to 1 Timothy 4, every creature of God is good, nothing to be refused. It is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. And so he can give thanks to God for his roast beef, even for his barbecued pork, and eat it with thanksgiving and a good conscience before God.

24:50 Now this brother, who has a problem with eating meat, eats meat not in his diet, he sees this man, who's an older, more mature Christian, giving thanks to God and eating to the glory of God. So he says, well, because he's doing it, I'll start including meat in my diet. And so what does he do? Before his conscience is persuaded by the word of God that that meat can be eaten to the glory of God, parameters of the law of God, simply following the example of his brother, while his conscience is still condemning him.

25:25 It's wrongly condemning him in terms of its light. His conscience is under a false guide and standard in listening to an inaccurate voice. But as long as his conscience is persuaded to eat that meat, it's sin for him to eat it. It is sin, not because the thing in itself is sin, but because he's making a moral judgment in an area where his conscience condemns him.

25:52 Now what does he need to do? He needs to pour over the scriptures until his conscience becomes enlightened that meat is a gift of God and unless for health reasons or for the sake of testimony to some of his vegetarian friends who might unnecessarily be offended, he is persuaded before God he can and ought to eat meat if he eats before his conscience is persuaded of the rightness of it. That is to eat in faith. To eat in the confidence that it is the will of God.

26:27 Now that lack of peace, that would be an indication of a moral and ethical controversy. Now can you see the distinction between those two things? And you must make that distinction. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

26:42 If I cannot do what I'm going to do convinced it is the will of God, then don't do it. Even though in itself it may not be sinful I'm making a moral choice in my judgment which is a choice of evil and that choice in itself is evil. Though the thing itself may not be evil. So if the lack of peace is really an indication my conscience is not persuaded that it is the will of God and pleasing to God then don't do it.

27:11 Happy is the man who condemns not himself in that which he allows for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. All right, is that helpful to sort out those two different things? Or have I just muddied the waters? Someone want to carry that on further because that is very, very crucial.

Lack of Peace as a Cover for Deeper Fears in Relationships

27:30 And of course it gets crucial in the area of romantic relationships and I wouldn't be at all surprised if that comes out of that. And what you've got to recognize in romantic relationships this nebulous lack of peace not in any way related to God's law, God's word to facts is often the catch-all for a number of other fears. Some of the very people who think they want to get married the most if it comes right down to it they're scared to death because they came out of a home where the marriage was a terrible and tragic experience and they're really afraid of marriage. Or they may have had a terrible experience as a younger man or woman in a dating relationship and there's a hidden not even a conscious fear that this thing may turn out that way. Perhaps someone was sexually abused as a male or a female and it happens in both directions and my counseling no longer assumes that only are girls abused by men but men are abused by men and even more in our sick generation young boys are abused by women. And it may be the thought that this whole area that will now have to be totally opened up in the marital relationship is one that I'm fearful. How can I ever bring myself to tell the person I'm about to commit myself to an engagement that's the next logical level.

28:58 How can I tell them that on the wedding night I'm not a virgin that I was violated by my own father my own brother, my own uncle. And so the lack of peace is really a cover-up for the unwillingness to run the risk of believing if I tell this man what he now has a right to know. He has no right to know that in the first and second date. If he goes probing for that slap him on his face and tell him to go home and learn some manners.

29:25 I mean that that angers me. The impudence of some men thinking on the first date they have a right to dive into the deepest soul of a young woman and find out all their secrets. That's just plain impudent. Bad manners.

29:38 Terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. You want to chase a good woman away quickly just do that. But it would also be wicked if a woman allowed a relationship to get into the commitment of engagement with marriage in view and not tell the young man what he's going to get. That would be defrauding him.

30:01 That would be a horrible, horrible act of deceit by withholding that information. And maybe the lack of peace is rooted in the fear that if the relationship goes the next step then I've got to open up that terrible closet and bring out those skeletons that I don't want to. In which case the answer is not saying well I don't have peace about the relationship. It's praying for the courage to make the thing known and say Lord if this relationship is of you then this man, this woman will love me in spite of knowing that.

30:33 I think of an incident in my pastoral experience that may encourage some of you. I'd be very surprised if what I'm saying some of you may not be sitting there right now saying oh Lord thank you. He's addressing that issue. I needed that.

30:45 I need that desperately. The relationship between a certain man and woman had reached that place where the next step was either bail out or get locked in for life and make a commitment to marriage and a formal engagement. And so the young man had to tell the woman look I don't want you to be under any false impressions. Before God saved me this is what I was.

31:09 And he was in his college days just the worst of philanders gathered in the frat house with the guys and bragged how many times they scored during the day with how many girls. The life of an absolute heinous. And he said I'm ashamed of it. I don't want to go into any of the details but that's the kind of life I lived and that's what you're getting if you take me.

31:32 And her answer was classic. She said so and so. That, that's for the sake of identifying him without identifying him let's call him Harry. She said that Harry I've never met.

31:46 I've never known. He's dead and buried in Christ's tomb. The Harry I is a noble, upright, godly, pure, honorable man who's treated me with all dignity and I have every reason he'll treat me the same way on our wedding night. End of discussion.

32:07 Well then he knew. Then he knew. Now some of you may have a lack of peace in relationships as they escalate because you know that you're going to have to have the vulnerability of being more fully known than you've ever been known before and you're scared to death of that and that gets thrown in the hopper of I just don't have peace. And so you have one relationship after another that begins to develop and then it gets terminated for quote lack of peace.

32:36 Well you better ask yourself does this lack of peace have a common root? Alright we said enough about peace. Lack of it. As a basis of guidance.

Obligation to Date and the Foundation of Friendship

32:47 Alright we can come back to it if we need to. Now another variable is a vital question. And this is submitted by number 155. As it says at the top.

33:00 155. I don't know whether that's your weekend release from the local prison number or what. 155. Knowing that as females given herself away.

33:22 Knowing that as females we may need to date a man to whom we may not initially be attracted are we constrained to agree to date someone for whom though through general interaction we have no affinity. And then it looks like a different handwriting. 155 must have a cellmate. Now look that's difficult to put a PS on there for her.

33:48 Two questions. And they really are two questions. And I'm convinced this distinction is crucial. Knowing that as females we may need to date a man to whom we may not initially be attracted.

34:09 Are we constrained to agree to date someone for whom through general interaction we have no affinity. Now what this woman is saying is because I believe biblically and in not just a matter of society I believe biblically man is to be the aggressor and the seeker. Whoso finds a wife finds a good thing. And we find in the patterns of scripture it was the father of Isaac who takes the initiative to find a bride excuse me.

34:44 Isaac's father who takes the initiative to find a bride for his son and the whole concept of Christ as the bridegroom who seeks his bride who wins and who woos her. There is much in the biblical material to make it evident that the concept that the male should be the aggressor and the seeker is a biblical concept and is supra cultural. That is it rides above any particular cultural peculiarities that may be lined up with that or set against that. And so this woman is acknowledging that in that given situation someone, a young man asks us for a date.

35:26 Says that I want to single you out with a view to getting to know you a bit better. And as she has been around the group of young men in the particular congregation she's a part of or in a conference like this as she's walked by different young men and sat down at tables she's felt no particular affinity no particular chemistry of attraction to this man. Is she obligated to accept the offer for a date? No, she's not obligated to date anybody.

36:00 Dating is not a biblical obligation as such. I don't see that we could bind her conscience she may believe that God's called her to a life of singleness and so she's not obligated to date anybody. But if she's not convinced she's called to a life of singleness and has biblical warrant for that conviction and that conviction has been confirmed by the counsel of wiser men and her own elders and mothers in Israel to whom she has bared her heart then in a sense she is obligated to give God the opportunity to answer her prayer that she would get a husband. Alright?

36:43 If she's praying, Lord if it please you give me a husband. Well, obviously Lord I'm not going to do that by one given morning picking her up out of bed clothing her in a bridal gown picking some guy up and then with celestial messengers drop them down in some church somewhere with a preacher in front of them. Some things have got to start before it comes to that. Now then if in answer to her prayer there is a young man that she has at least enough knowledge to know that he is a professing Christian in good standing in a church and I want to underscore that to you gals don't you let any character who's pronounced himself a Christian but who's never had his profession undergo the scrutiny of a group of elders to get admitted into a biblical church avoid him like the plague. All you do is mess things up for yourself mess things up for your friends and your overseers and the whole congregation. To be a proven Christian is to be an open disciple identified with a biblical church no one else is recognized as a Christian in the word of God. I'm not saying no one else is a Christian but no one else is recognized as a Christian.

38:02 In the book of Acts Christians are identified by their presence among the Christian community and if you gals will settle in your heart I don't care if he makes Robert Redford look ugly and Arnold Schwarzenegger look like a wimp and I don't care if he's as eloquent as Churchill and as brilliant as Einstein and can quote his Bible from Genesis to Revelation from memory if the only person who's judged him to be a Christian is himself avoid him like he'd just been sprayed with a skunk because the Christian community creeps with men like that and I meet them all over the place they can talk talkative in children's progress and the reason they're not part of any church is they don't want any group of discerning men and Christians to get close enough they might really sniff them out for what they really are so girls if you settle that you'll save yourself a thousand woes just settle it as a non-ghostible not even open for discussion if he fits that category then you have reason to believe that his profession is real

39:31 his character is upright he's a member in good standing the people of God can validate that he's a Christian gentleman but you're not particularly drawn to him must there be a chemistry of some degree of positive affinity before you date a man my answer would be from the word of God I see nothing in the Bible that leads me to say there must be the chemistry the affinity of romantic chemical magnetism before you give a man an opportunity to let you know who he is and before you give him the opportunity to get to know who you are I was talking at the table with several of the young men this morning as I've searched the scriptures I do not find anything in the scriptures that in any way mandates that there's got to be a previous chemistry of romantic affinity and attraction before we begin to get to know someone who may be God's choice of a life partner and until someone can show me from the scripture that that must be present I'm not going to say it must be now I'm not going to say if it is present it is sin I can't say that either because you do have the example

41:00 of Jacob and that affinity that he had for Rachel but there's no indication of previous affinity between Isaac and Rebecca he hadn't even seen her let alone I think you hold the same bible I do and I believe from the word of God it is wrong to set up an arbitrary standard and say there must be some measure of that kind of chemistry which if it develops would be called full-blown romantic love the chemistry of strong affinity and the magnetism of attraction etcetera no I do not believe that such is necessary and if a woman is praying that God would give her a husband she says are we constrained to agree to date someone yes if they make known where they want to take you what they want to do all questions which you young women not only have a right to ask you ought to ask don't agree to a quote date blank check what are you proposing to do where and with whom and for how long and in what company be right to ask that and any godly young man

42:27 will admire you for doing so my girls had an arrangement with me they asked for it I didn't impose it when they got to dating age and guys began to notice that they weren't too bad looking and they were beginning to get asked to go here or there they said dad would you be willing to be the clearing house for a woman for any dates I said sure they're glad to they asked me they said you mean now anybody wants to date us they got to come and talk to you first I said that's fine so when they'd come I'd say I understand you want to date one of my daughters yes all right if he were a member in good standing in the case of one of my daughters she believed she was saved but she was not yet prepared to make open confession of faith a young man began to be interested in her she told him you have no right dating me I'm not a member of the church yet I didn't tell her to say that she said it that ended it they've now been married for four years

43:34 what he told the Lord on his knees in private was his business but there was no contact of a boy girl nature for that whole period of time till she became an openly professed disciple in baptism and church membership saves a lot of problems well anyway I would then say to the young man well I'm glad to know you're interested in dating my daughter where do you plan to take her in whose company for how long when do you plan to bring her home here are our house rules here's our curfew eleven o'clock any night of the week except Saturday curfew on Saturday is ten o'clock so we're not weary for the Lord's day how much time between where you're taking her and getting home and what are you going to do with it those are the kind of questions I asked and if any young man didn't appreciate a father who had invested his life in his daughters along with his mother well you know that's the kind of questions I asked and if any young man didn't appreciate a father who had invested his life in his mother then he wasn't worthy of my daughters and then if they cleared me then that didn't obligate my daughters to say yes it just meant that they're on the approved list

44:40 and it solved a lot of problems and during that time gave me an opportunity to say now look my daughter's eighteen or nineteen however old she is she's never been kissed by any other man but her father and her relatives but she's never been kissed romantically by a man don't you spoil the record they're committed and I'm committed with them as is their mother that the first man that shall kiss them romantically is the man who's saying with his kiss I'm giving my heart to you and for all intents and purposes this relationship will end up in marriage you say you gotta be kidding no I'm not kidding and by the grace of God that standard was kept and the only two men my daughters have kissed romantically are the men to whom they are happily married you say that's out of another age well so be it either I'm a liar or it's true my daughters would stand here and testify that that was not bondage it was blessed liberty they were protected from themselves and from others now you're not strongly attracted I haven't lost the track I'm just getting in a lot of little stuff along the way I would say that your prayers for a husband may border on presumptuous prayers if you don't at least give God an opportunity to make this man

46:08 attractive to you then after you've dated him what should happen this leads me now I was hoping the question would lead it into it I did me a little diagram and the little diagram came into focus just last week in a counseling session and the young woman who came to counsel with me is here so I'm greatly indebted to her as a relatively new Christian and having never dated as a Christian she wanted to do it right she said can you give me some principles so what I did is I drew a little pyramid and I said here are the varying levels of sexual interactions of a romantic or of a sexual nature and by sexual I don't mean just sexual in terms of the sex act I'm trying to distinguish between the male-female relations that many of you have had with me this week as we've talked and shared our concerns in our hearts one with another the ultimate is marriage leading to marriage is engagement leading to engagement is courting in which marriage views are discussed etc then regular exclusive dating where you both agree that you desire to get to know one another enough that you're not going to clog it up with trying to get to know two other people at the same time and then general occasional dating the question I asked this young woman when I drew the pyramid is what is the solid granite block foundation for meaningful relationships between a man and a woman at any level

47:37 from occasional general dating all the way to marriage and that foundation is friendship the most happy marriages of the longest duration find that the husband and wife are increasingly the closest to friends my best friend next to my savior is sitting right over there and her best friend is standing right up here now what makes for friendships how do you establish friendships by verbal communication not by putting physical nerve endings or contact that's not communication that's the quickest way to destroy the ability to communicate is to let physical involvement get messed up at any of these levels verbal communication shared interest group interaction so that you're able to observe the things a person likes and the kind of people they're drawn to and how they relate to people and how people relate to them and that's where the most important thing is that there is a certain level of understanding of people and that's why you can have a

49:06 shared relationship with people that's what you need to until he proves an apostate. And daddy wants to rear him as a little sinner with a lot of privileges that needs to get converted. And the very way they pray for the kid in his presence will confuse the kid. Daddy prays, oh God, he's got a wicked heart.

49:28 He's lost. He needs to be saved. Save him and convert him. Mama says, Lord, thank you for our little covenant child.

49:35 We pray that the life you've implanted in him will develop under the nurture.

49:40 It makes all the difference in the world. So you want to start. And no matter how a relationship emerges and develops, friendship is the granite foundation of any meaningful male-female interaction from the most occasional general dating all the way into marriage. Now, at this level, no physical intimacy of any kind is warranted.

Levels of Dating and Physical Intimacy

50:06 Now notice I didn't say no physical contact. If you're a gentleman walking across these grounds the other day when there were a lot of ice patches, I don't care if you never met the girl before, if you saw one of the young ladies with leather-soled shoes, it'd be perfectly appropriate for you to have walked up and said, do you mind if I take your elbow to help you? And a firm squeeze on the elbow would no way be regarded as a physical intimacy of a sexual or romantic nature. So that's why I've said no physical intimacy, not no physical contact.

50:39 A gentleman will often have some physical contact with a woman. So many women in our day are so accustomed to men not being gentlemen, they'll march right in front of you and put their hand on the door. The other day, in a counseling session with a young lady, I had to take her hand and put it off the doorknob and say, please let me be a gentleman. Touched a woman?

51:01 Yes, I did. But she'd have been a sickle to say that there was anything sexual in that touch. I was simply seeking to be a gentleman. So that's what I mean by this.

51:16 In occasional friendships, in occasional general dating which is seeking to establish a friendship to see if the chemistry of more than a casual friendship is in order, no physical intimacy is warranted. You don't walk up to people who are just friends and kiss them romantically, hold their hand romantically, put your arm around them romantically. It's totally out of place. And if you settle that, it clears away so much.

51:47 What am I attempting to do in this first date? I don't feel particularly drawn to this young man, but he's a proven commodity. I'm going to establish some level of friendship. And after the first date or second date, you may both agree that the friendship has reached its optimum level of expediency.

52:06 And what happens? Then you simply bail out at that level. And what do you have? You have someone who's a better friend.

52:14 And you have a good conscience. And you've got no regrets. And you've learned some lessons of how to make yourself known and how to ask questions that make someone else known. And you young ladies, listen to me.

52:26 If a guy dates you and all he does is talk about himself and his world and his interests and all the rest, he's not interested in you. He's full of himself.

52:37 How can you have a friendship with someone so full of himself that he's not interested in you? And what makes you tick? And what interests you? But then if it escalates to where you both agree that there is enough, of a solid friendship based upon what you've learned through verbal communication, shared interest, group interaction, you like what you see of how the other person relates to children, to married people, to your peers in a single situation, and there's a context of shared biblical convictions, you may agree to a time of regular exclusivating to try to do what?

53:13 Intensify your friendship. This is what you're seeking to do. Now, the problem is everyone around you thinks what you're doing is just biding time to jump up here to engagement in marriage, and that's wrong. And wherever possible, I try to instruct our people that they don't make that assumption because that puts a social pressure on the young men and women that's not fair.

53:37 Now, during this period of regular exclusive dating, what may happen? You may find that in the area of shared interest, in the area of some fundamental areas of group interaction, You discover certain things that could be a real impediment to a relationship escalating into courtship, engagement, and marriage. What do you do? You don't automatically bail out.

54:04 Maybe God has brought you together that you might be a unique means of grace to help each other in those areas of deficiency. You see, you're not looking for someone all as Ms. Right and Mr. Right.

54:18 But you're willing that he would be used to help you see some areas of deficiency. And he's willing for you to be used to show him some areas of deficiency. Because I'll tell you something, whatever you know of that in occasional, general dating or regular exclusive dating, it's only a preview to what you'll know for a lifetime in marriage. God makes a woman to be a helper answering to the man's need.

54:45 And as she gets to know things about him no one else does, the way she answers to his need is, she verbally helps him to see an area of deficiency, an area of abnormality, quirks and bad habits. He just may not know that he'd been picking his right ear from the time he was three years old. And in any social situation, he's digging wax out of his right ear. No one ever...

55:11 And she says, you know, you've got a habit that just grinds my socks. They set up the man's signals. That whenever he starts doing it, unconsciously, she catches his eye and she goes, silly little thing. But you see, it's those kind of things that so often people say, oh, well, he's got this stupid habit that turns me off.

55:42 I can't be interested in him. That's not the real world. That's not the real world. So if it then escalates from regular exclusive dating to where now you see a friendship solid enough with shared interest and diversity of interest, and you're able to communicate to one another, and your conviction that you have shared biblical standards and goals has deepened to where you are now able rightly and with propriety to discuss marriage, your views of marriage, number of children you would like to have, all things being equal, your views of educating children.

56:20 Now, you see where I've got this? I don't have this in the first occasional date. And some of you wackos, you've turned women off. Hey, you want to know how many kids would you like to have?

56:33 If you ever get married.

56:36 No wonder they said no the next time. On the first date. That's being boring. That's like walking into someone's house as a guest for a meal and saying, do you mind if I go in and look in your bedroom drawers?

56:58 Except the dining room and the living room, you ought to go in the bathroom if you've got to go.

57:05 And while there, you don't open a medicine chest to see what kind of medicine she's taking. Seriously now, you see how this is escalating? Now, at this point, at this point, it may become clear that you have such radically different views on the fundamental matters of marriage and roles that it would be unwise to let the relationship escalate into engagement and back it down to regular dating while you work through those differences.

57:56 Okay? Doesn't mean you ought to automatically bail out. Maybe this gal has been so influenced by careerism and feminism that she's just got some kinks in her hair. Thinking that are not getting worked out in the ordinary ministry of the word.

58:12 And you need to be a man of God to sit down with the Bible and lovingly and graciously. Galatians 6.1 You, someone overtaken in a fault. She's overtaken in a fault of her thinking, molded by this world.

58:25 And you lovingly instruct her. And she says, oh, I see that. And what happens? These areas that would have been caution lights are now rectified.

58:36 Now rectified. And it's right to let the relationship escalate to engagement. You see? And if at any point the relationship terminates, at least you've got a friend.

58:50 And you've learned the chemistry of how to develop friendships. And if you've recognized these principles that no physical intimacy of any kind is warranted up until in this area, then very limited, restrained, accountable physical intimacy of varying degrees, may be appropriate in courting and engagement. If a relationship gets this far, am I prepared to say someone is sinning and tempting God if they were to hold hands? I wouldn't be prepared to say that.

59:23 But I am prepared to say that anything that belongs to foreplay, passionate kissing, embracing, petting, and of course intercourse, is exclusive for marriage. It is not warranted in any degree in engagement. Engaged couples who engage in passionate kissing and embracing are not obeying the mandate, flee fornication. They're disobeying the mandate, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

59:51 Limited, restrained, accountable physical intimacy. Take some Christian friends into your confidence and say we don't want to mar the relationship during our engagement. Will you please check up on us weekly and ask us if we're keeping our standards. Here's the standards we've set.

60:12 We will never be found in one another's apartment without someone present. I'm amazed in our Reformed Baptist circles how many couples tempt God by being alone in each other's apartments. I wonder where their heads are at.

60:28 If you think you're so strong that you can put yourself in a physical context where fornication would be possible without embarrassment, you just may end up fornicating. Put yourself in physical circumstances where fornication would be impossible for sheer embarrassment of being physically found out. We had a dating room in our house. The way it's laid out is very nice in that you can come in the front hall and walk into the main part of the house.

60:57 It's split level. And if you walk further in the hall and went to the right, we have a guest room. That's the dating parlor. And it's completely private.

61:04 Anyone coming in and out doesn't see in there. But when our girls were being courted, we said, that's the court. And we said, well, we're going to court. And we said, well, we're going to court.

61:12 And we said, well, we're going to court. The door stays three or four inches ajar. And at any time, any one of us can walk in if we choose to. Well, just that kind of restraint was a holy restraint to keep any of the physical intimacy that was legitimate during a period of engagement from in any way getting into the realm that would be sinful.

61:33 So I pass on to you this that is just crystallized in my own thinking in the last week that I found helpful and I believe will stand up to the general principles of the world. The word of God. Now we come back to the question carried a little bit further. What if the relationship gets up into this realm, into court, where you're talking about marriage and views of marriage.

Love, Attraction, and the World's Influence on Marriage

61:56 At that point, if there is not the emergence of some degree of the magnetism, the chemistry of felt love, erotic desire, the fall, that totally possessing this person and being possessed by him has a measure of delight, then I would say you better be very careful. But how much of that must be present? I don't see that the Bible answers that question. And I know the answer is not the answer of Hollywood and of the soaps and of the sitcoms and of present American society.

62:41 Because I see in the scripture that biblical marital love is something learned. It is not something that is instinctively injected by this nebulous chemistry of infatuation. Otherwise, why would the Bible say the older women are to train the younger women to love their husbands?

63:03 Why would the Bible say that? Why would the Bible say husbands love your wives if love led into the marriage? Biblical, godly love. Why would the scripture give us those injunctions?

63:18 And I believe again, we've allowed too much of the world to influence our thinking. And as I said to one of the young men today, that in this area, I'm convinced it's the roadblock to marriages being consummated in our circles. I'm not saying it's the only roadblock or the major one, but I'm convinced it's one of the major ones. Because the scripture puts the emphasis upon finding for a man a worthy woman.

63:48 A worthy woman. It doesn't say a worthy woman who can be magnetically, powerfully infatuated with one. Who can find her. The judgment is the leading faculty in the pursuit of a wife.

64:04 Not the chemistry of romantic affinity and attachment. Because in the bonds of marriage, cultivating a biblical relationship where a man's determined to dwell with his wife according to knowledge, and to be a loving, tender, sensitive, nourishing, cherishing head over her, unless she has some physical dysfunction, and unless she has some deep psychological scar, all of the chemistry of sexual intimacy and romantic attachment will have a whole lifetime to blossom into flower in that kind of a biblical framework. Now to conclude the question, what if we really don't like the man? If the man, is to you after doing your best to get to know who he really is in some more serious dating relationship where friendship and the chemistry of friendship is part and parcel, he is still, after all of your time of getting to know him, he's still the dark gray car.

65:10 Don't buy him. In other words, God is not, again, a sadist who's going to force you to marry someone you don't like. Now in arranged marriages, that may be necessary in certain cultures.

65:29 God doesn't force you to marry someone you don't like. But neither do I see that the Bible says God will only do in answer to your prayers for a marriage partner if you are, quote, in love. When I can be shown that from the Bible, I'll be willing to hold it up as a standard. But I'm not seeing it in my Bible.

65:59 Now maybe you, and I stand, that's not a tongue-in-cheek challenge. If you can show me something from the Scriptures, because I've been vexed with this question for years, and I have no light on the matter, that there has to be this other thing, and much of it is tied in with this other notion that in all the world, there's just one Miss Wright for me and one Mr. Wright for me. That, again, is not a biblical notion.

66:24 How could Paul say so matter-of-factly to avoid fornication, let each man have his own wife, let each woman have her own husband? Art thou loose from a wife? Because of the present circumstances, seek not a wife yet. If you take a wife, you have not sinned.

66:40 He talks about these things in a matter-of-fact way that indicates this whole complicated mechanism, having to see if I've got so many degrees on the philometer and all the rest. I just don't see it in the biblical concept. I just don't see it. When Proverbs, Solomon's warning the young man against adultery, against immorality, he says, here's God's means.

67:04 He says, rejoice in the wife of thy youth, indicating that the guy didn't go all his life wrestling with what criteria should guide me. He just went out and got him a wife and started living with her. Rejoice in the wife of thy youth. And then goes on to speak of conjugal intimacy and how it's a means of grace to keep under God from a life of immorality.

67:27 Not an infallible means, but the ordinary means of grace. Well, that's a long answer to the question, but I felt a number of these other collateral issues needed to be brought in. Now, you want to shoot me down or shoot me or throw back some questions on this issue before we move on? Yes.

Developing Friendships and Seeking Honest Feedback

67:46 So what about if, on the man's side, you try to know a number of girls and you don't have any particular one, and you'd really like to especially get to know, what do you, do you just keep trying to get to know the girls in general? What would you do in that sort of situation? Yeah, just develop many. Occasional friendships and then try to make them beneficial.

68:07 And while they're at that level, then you can talk very frankly and say, what is there about me that would make me unattractive? What do I do? How do I come across in a way that is not the mark of a godly man? You see, at that level, you can talk about those things without the girl getting false notions.

68:27 And that's another thing that is so crucial that I didn't mention, Mike, and your question reminds me. That there needs to be a verbalization and an understanding of where a relationship is and at what level it is being escalated. Not an assumption. You see, you get a gal thinking that because she's been dated three times, the guy's courting her with a view to marrying her.

68:49 And he just thinks this is occasional general dating that may end up with regular exclusive dating. So you've got to verbalize it. These things are not self-defining. And one of the good things of general social interaction, and I think, it's the kind of thing that is so beneficial with a time like this, if you're mature enough to take it, you ought to help one another and not sit and pick on one another, but exhort one another while it is called a day.

69:19 And Robert Burns said, Would some power of the gift would give us to see ourselves as either to see us? Some of you gals who've got a secure enough friendship, you ought to ask each other. Tell me honestly, what do you see about me that from your understanding of the average godly Christian young man might be a turn-off? Well, really, you just talk too much about yourself.

69:42 Whenever we get together, if there's three of us, you can count on it, two-thirds of the conversation is taken up by you. Now, if you're the same way with a guy, that's bad news. You gals can help one another if you're honest, and you guys can help one another. If one of you sees that the other one has a tendency to just dominate conversation, to be self-centered, to have a silly, giggly laugh that appears effeminate, be honest with one another.

70:10 Help one another. And remember, it's hard to do that, but if we love one another, faithful of the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. I remember years ago, a young man, that he just had some very effeminate gestures. And I had the difficult task of just asking, has anyone ever pointed out to you that your gestures are not distinctively masculine?

70:32 He says, what do you mean? I said, when you talk, you go like this, he said, no, people have laughed at me. I said, well, look, I'm telling you in love. You have gestures that are effeminate.

70:44 When you point, you go like this, instead of like this. I said, I want to give you some suggestions. Here's how you can work on it. And in three weeks, 90% of those gestures were gone.

70:54 No one ever loved him enough to tell him. No one loved him enough to tell him.

71:00 That's a pathetic thing. Who knows how many young women were turned off, wondering if the guy were queer.

71:06 Somewhere along the line, he didn't have good male models, he didn't have people he loved, they laughed at him, but they didn't love him enough to tell him.

71:14 I've seen other young men, they just think that the externals are not important. What I am before God is what's important. Yeah, but long before a girl knows what you are before God, she sees that you're wearing suits that are seven years out of style. And she says to herself, I wouldn't want to be caught dead with a man like that.

71:31 I'd be so embarrassed, people wondered if I reached back into the little house in the prairie and extricated Paul. No, that's right. And you've got to be honest, you've got to be honest with one another and say, hey, guy, look, get your act together. He says, well, but I'm giving, I've gotten out to where I'm giving 25% to the Lord and there's no room in my budget for clothes.

71:52 Then you tell him he's got a wrong sense of what he's doing with his money. Clothes don't make the man, but the clothes do speak loudly about the man as well as the woman. I saw a woman with the...

72:10 Long before he knew anything about her character and her actions, he knew what her clothes were saying. I saw a man with the attire of a slob.

72:21 Who wants to be interested in a slob? Well, then don't dress like a slob.

72:27 Have someone help you. If you don't know what it means to be dressed properly for your age and stage and station in life, help is available. You gals the same way. Some of you love your chocolates too much and you've got a metabolism that anything more than 1,200 calories a day goes into an excess abdupois and you don't know what to do.

72:48 You don't know what to do. You don't know what to do. You don't know what to do. You don't know what to do.

72:48 You don't know what to do. You don't know what to do. You don't know what to do.

72:50 Call briefly fat and do something about it. Find out what your body chemistry is like, what your caloric intake is to maintain and figure out how much you need to lose and do something about it. If 20 pounds less of you would make you more desirable, then get rid of the 20 pounds without becoming a body worshiper. But according to the Song of Solomon in romantic love, physical attractiveness is legitimate as well as smells and sight and setting.

73:20 You see, the Bible's very practical in these things.

73:25 So, it's a long answer to that question, but we got in a lot of other things along the way. Anyone else want to follow up on anything in this area? Because it is so crucial.

73:39 Sound radical to say you don't need to be head over heels in love to pursue a relationship?

73:48 Amen. Yeah, radical in terms of the world's teaching, but certainly not biblical. Yeah.

Male Aggressiveness and Christian Gentleman Style

73:57 All right, any other questions on this matter? Can we move on to another question? Yes. So, basically what you're saying is when these guys are facing the market and you know they're going to come along and the light bulb is going to go on and the guys that are just not doing anything really they're not filling the role as a man.

74:17 Oh, that's right. They're in sin. They're at least very presumptuous to think they're going to get a life. Yeah, if they feel they're called to a life of singleness, that's one thing.

74:28 And that's a very sacred thing. That's why I never, never, never through the years and some of you have been under my ministry for many years. I never use the term old maid. I think that's a rotten pejorative term.

74:41 Singleness when extended because of the will of God according to 1 Corinthians 7 is a very noble thing. She that is unmarried is careful how she may please the Lord. And some of the most godly, useful women in our assembly are noble, single women. And we treat them with nobility and treat them with dignity.

75:02 They're not second-class. They're not second-class citizens. And they're not bitter and sour. They're not becoming sour old maids.

75:08 They're becoming sweetened, ripened, single saints. That's what they're becoming. But I believe that the problem is part of what I addressed last night. That men do not have, in our generation, many men lack that aggressiveness in the totality of their manhood.

75:29 And because they've not had examples of how it should be manifested, in male-female relationships, they carry it to an extreme to where first occasional general date, they're talking about stuff up here.

75:46 They're telling someone, look, I know this instance is true. Truth is stranger than fiction. And the parties are not here. I wouldn't tell it if they were here.

76:03 But I get a letter from one of the young women in the church. Dear pastor, I want to give you an account. And how my first date went with so-and-so. Because they told me that they were going to have their first date.

76:12 And she was kind of excited about it. She said, in essence, it was a blowout. She said, let me give you a little thumbnail account of what happened. Now, when people date, they don't have to do this.

76:24 We as elders don't say that. She doesn't have a father. And she trusts me. She loves me.

76:35 And she wanted someone to help monitor. This was totally voluntary. I say that again because it's amazing how people will read into things. All kinds of nonsense.

76:45 And we don't mandate that couples tell us when they date and who they date and give us a minute-by-minute log of their dates. But this gal took me into her confidence and she wanted to tell me about it. So she wrote, and this is almost a verbatim quote. Dear pastor, I'll give you an account of the date.

77:01 First of all, he picked me up at my home. As we were walking to the car, he pointed to the side, the passenger side, and said, I think the door is open. You can get in. And then she put in parenthesis, of course, this made me feel very noble.

77:16 She then went on to say, then we drove to the restaurant. And we are seated. And before the waiter even brought the water, he said to me, quote, I think I should tell you my intentions. Parenthesis.

77:30 At which point, she said, I thought he was going to tell me that he intended to get something on the menu that was heavy with garlic and that I would have to put up with garlic breath for the rest of the night. End of parenthesis. But no sooner did he tell me that he was going to tell me his intentions, but that he said, I'm looking for a wife. Parenthesis.

77:52 At which point, she said, I'm looking for an exit. And I mean, it was a blowout from beginning to end. Well, then, then the young man called me and said, Pastor, I need to have a counseling session with you. And I thought, just maybe there's a connection between the two.

78:23 So I spoke to the young woman. I said, look, so-and-so is asked to see me. And I usually ask, why they want to see me to see whether I need to give it an emergency spot or plan it a week or two ahead. But I didn't ask because I had a sneaking suspicion what it was.

78:37 I said, look, if it seems appropriate, do I have permission to use your letter if I believe it could help the young man? She said, yes, you have my permission.

78:49 So the young man came. And sure enough, he said, Pastor said, I had my first date with so-and-so and I think I blew it. He said, I'm afraid I did some things wrong. He said, I don't know how to go about this.

79:04 And this is the part I don't mean to be funny. This is serious. He said, before I was converted, he said, I knew how to date because I had one thing in mind and I knew how to go after it and get it. But now that I'm a Christian, I've never dated with a Christian perspective and I don't know how to go about it.

79:17 And he said, I'm not quite sure what to do. I said, well, would you like to know how you look through the eyes of the young lady? He said, yeah, that'd be helpful. I said, well, in the providence of God, I can tell you exactly how you look.

79:33 I said, I have a letter and I have her permission to read it, not to shame you, but to help you. So I read to him what I've quoted to you. And he sat there and his head was here. And after a few lines, it was here.

79:48 A few lines, it was here. And then he was like this. And he was really grieved. Tender heart before the Lord.

79:58 He saw that he had acted in a way that was boorish, insensitive, and in that sense, unchristian. And he was deeply grieved. And I think he learned some valuable lessons. Well, why do I tell you all of that?

80:11 Not just to get some laughs, but to say to some of you guys, you need some help. And you're going to scare away any noble young woman because you're not coming at it the right way. You'll hear my exhortation like last night to be aggressive, and you're going to go about it like a caveman. And between here and the dorms, grab some Christian girl and say, you're it.

80:34 I'm coming after you, babe. Slowly, passive, tactfully. You see? There's two ways to be aggressive.

80:52 Caveman style and Christian gentleman style. And if you don't know how, don't get ashamed of that. Go to somebody who can help you and say, look, how in the world do I go about with manly aggressiveness clothed with Christian grace and tenderness? Can you help me?

81:12 And there are people who'd be glad to help you and give you counsel, give you direction, so that hopefully, under God, you won't scare the fish away before you get the hook in its jaw. And by the end, you won't even have to net it. It'll jump into the boat. And then you'll know it's the right thing.

81:31 Well, any other question on this vital subject? You gals, tell me. I'm a man talking. Do I know what I'm talking about?

81:43 Do I have a little understanding of how you're put together? If you girls feel comfortable with what I've said, raise your hands. Okay. Hey, you guys.

81:52 Keep them up, girls. Come on, keep them up. I want you guys to look around. See those hands?

82:02 All right. I'm not going back and say we had 35 decisions this weekend. I had some pretty encouraging, overwhelming confirmation that the perspectives I've laid before you are not biased male perspectives, but that they're biblical perspectives showing some sensitivity to how God's made you women and how you would long to be, in that sense, made a friend of a Christian man and not feel pressured that you're a piece of meat hanging up that he's gauging whether or not he wants to buy this one or that one or the other one. And that's what some of I've gotten from some of you gals. Christian men have come at this thing in such a direct, insensitive way that you felt like you were some kind of a commodity in the shop. And they were looking it over to whether or not they're going to buy this one or that one. Men, that's not the way to go about it.

83:04 That's demeaning to the woman. And she wants to know that she's being pursued, but being pursued with a noble Christian dignity and not with a kind of caveman coarseness that will scare away a Christian woman. And learn the art of digging into her mind, drawing her out. Not always talking about yourself.

83:29 Either what you know and what you've done and your attainments and your feelings. You'd be a horrible boor to live with. As someone said, he who has himself as the center of his life is wrapped up how does it go, honey? In a small package.

83:44 You say it better than I do. That's it. A person wrapped up in himself makes a very small package. And you don't want to sell yourself as a small package by just being wrapped up in yourself.

83:58 But show that you have the capacity to want to get wrapped up in the interests and the concerns of another. Well, it's 10.57. We're supposed to stop at 11 o'clock.

Feelings, Emotions, and Physiological Factors in Depression

84:10 The other questions were really of a more technical and I don't even know if I could even answer them. What if any is the difference between feelings and emotions? According to the dictionary definitions they are used synonymously. They define emotions by feelings and feelings by emotions.

84:28 And if there's any difference the emotions are the latent capacity to feel certain things. Could you list all the possible emotions that man may experience? No, I could not. Someone differentiate a medical manifestation versus an emotional manifestation.

84:53 Well, that's a very, very complex thing. We're fearfully and wonderfully made and we so interpenetrate the soul and the body. The mind, the emotions, hormones, brain chemistry, the neurotransmitters in the brain, all kinds of things. We get into a whole realm here where we'd need the physician, the psychiatrist, the body, the nutritionist, any number of expert opinion.

85:24 And I would not dabble in areas concerning which I simply know how much I don't know as I try to help people whose emotional fluxes and highs and lows do not seem to be rooted primarily in the absence of spiritual dynamics. But there's something wrong physiologically and while we work on those things we try to...

85:46 It's a trial and error thing. Just the same way with people who have chronic manic depressives. We know there's something wrong with the neurotransmitters. Certain chemicals for some get them wired right again.

85:59 The lithium. Others it doesn't. They recently discovered in treating some TB patients with the medication they thought was calculated only for TB that those among the TB who suffered from chronic abnormal depression were getting better. So they analyzed the constituent elements of the drug that was treating the TB and found among them was a drug that is another of the neurotransmitters.

86:25 And as of the reading of this article by the head psychiatrist of the Lahey Clinic there were five. They have known proven chemicals that helped in reestablishing the neurotransmission in the brain which greatly assists the problem of chronic and abnormal depression. By now they may have discovered a few more but this is a whole area that involves many, many factors and I hope if there are any of you struggling with unusually chronic deep and crippling mood swings and all of the spiritual principles you sought to apply haven't worked and the new ones you've learned this week don't work then it may be that you need to seek help at another level and not assume that it's all spiritual because there's such a delicate interplay. Remember when Elijah was suffering from a deep, deep period of depression the Lord did not hit him on the head and just give him a bunch of promises. The first thing he did is put him to sleep give him a big meal and then put him back to sleep again. Then and only then was he in a frame where he could deal with him about the spiritual dimensions of his depression which were primarily he was playing God.

87:42 I even I only have left the measure of God's working is what I can see and that's why he was depressed and God said no you're wrong I've left for me seven thousand that have not bowed the knee to Baal. You see he made the measure of reality his perception of reality and his emotions went down. So some of the very principles we've dealt with are there but you see God didn't do that right away. First of all God took his tired worn out emotionally burnt out servant and put him to sleep fed him and put him back to sleep.

88:12 Then he got him in good enough shape to go to work on his conscience. He's a loving father and we who deal with others need to show that same disposition. It's a terrible thing when preachers rubbing someone's conscience raw. You ought to believe God get out of that depression when the problem is not there.

88:30 Lack of faith and something being wired right in the brain through lack of something in their body chemistry. And I know people can hide behind that. Sure people can hide behind anything but it doesn't invalidate that that is a very legitimate cause in some cases. Well we covered the questions that were given plus ran in a lot of other...