Questions and Answers

The Role of Physical Attractiveness in Finding a Spouse

0:00 iterations. Number one, the created order, the man or woman is attracted to someone who answers to them, that is, their atoms to their ease. Does this not involve, doesn't this also include someone who answers to them in physical appearance? This seems to be different from the, quote, superstar, end quote, syndrome you discussed. The analogy of scripture, it must be granted that beauty is vain, etc. But the Bible does mention that Sarah's wife was beautiful, that Isaac's servant found a beautiful woman, of Job that his daughters were said to be beautiful. And let's see, I write this question in full realization that a woman who at first appears less beautiful than one would desire can be beautiful when she is known. I myself have experienced this.

0:57 Quite simply, my question is this, what part does physical attractiveness play in finding someone answering to you? Now, again, this shows great wisdom. You see what the brother has done here. He sees some biblical materials and he's trying to reconcile them. And then he says, now, what is the one common denominator that I'm looking for? And then he states it. That's a very good example of problem solving. You take your biblical data, on the one hand this, on the other hand this, what is the real question, and then seek to resolve it. Well, I think the answer is quite clear. And let me just mix up the answer in terms of the order in which this is given. The scripture does mention that Abraham's wife, Sarah, was beautiful, that Isaac's wife was beautiful to look upon. Now, the very fact that it mentions these women as beautiful, and hundreds of other women are not mentioned, it simply underscores what I've already stated. Unusual or striking beauty is just that. It is the exception, not the rule. If it were the rule, it wouldn't

2:07 be mentioned. It doesn't say, and so and so took a woman who had two hands. That's a common denominator. But he took a wife who was beautiful to look upon. That set her apart from the average, you see. So that, again, the exception is not to be despised if God did something to Abraham, a beautiful woman named Sarah. He should receive her as a gift from God. But he is not to assume, unless God gives me a beautiful woman, I will not look at her twice. So I think that's the proper assessment of those who are mentioned as beautiful. Esther was a beauty queen, beauty queen of Persia, she became. Exactly what she became. And it is like a Miss America contest. They picked her above all of the others. Now, this moves

2:55 us to this whole question. Will God, and I touched on it earlier, will God direct me to someone who does not, for lack of a better term, turn me on physically? Well, of course not, in the sense that God is not going to lead me to marry someone whose physical bearing is repulsive to me. No. The point I was making, and I think needs to be reiterated, is, how can I tell if there will be the kind of legitimate attraction unless I have a beautiful woman who is beautiful? How can I begin to know the whole person, you see? Because any man who can be in the presence of a beautiful woman, who's got the right amount of flesh in the right place in the right arrangement, and not be stirred, just lacks hormones. He lacks hormones. Of

3:45 course he does. So you see, that initial stirring of physical attraction can be nothing but the stirring up of your hormones. And that's a pretty shallow basis upon which to begin or continue or try to build a relationship. Nearly the two hormones.

3:59 Nearly the two hormones get upset. So that I think the proper perspective is to look for those virtues that are biblical, to pray more and more that God will give you eyes to behold what is true beauty, and then as you begin to develop a relationship, if it comes to the place where you begin to appreciate the true beauty of the person, the male or female, and yet there is just a sense of revulsion physically, then obviously God does not expect you to try to control it. But if you try to consummate a marriage in which you're totally turned off by a person, that would be a form of cruelty. So exactly what place then does physical attractiveness play in finding someone answering to you?

4:42 Well, I think again I've in part answered that by saying we should make ourselves as attractive as we can be with what we've got. Now you can never turn Ford into Cadillac. But you can sure put some nice hubcaps on it. You can polish it.

5:01 You can change the oil. You can put some slipcovers on it. It doesn't need to look like a heap just ready to go to the graveyard. You see?

5:10 And it's amazing again. Now someone would say, do you think it's wrong for a Christian girl to go to a beautician and say, what's the best thing to be done with my hair in terms of my face? I don't think that's wrong at all. And I've seen some girls who've been literally changed from plain James to reasonably attractive girls simply by a change of hairstyle.

5:29 A little judicious application of some rouge and lipstick and a new wardrobe. And it's been amazing what it's done. Without in any way losing one ounce of true Christian reserve and that holy veil that a woman should have. Because, and this is where the other half of the Apple book would be helpful to you, she deals very, very helpfully here.

5:52 Wanting to be attractive and trying to appear sexy are two different things. You don't need to prove the truth. You don't need to prove to tellers that you're a woman and that a woman's anatomy is different from a man's. As I told a group of young people this summer, there were some of those girls going around trying to give me an anatomy lesson every time they walked.

6:10 And I said, girls, I understand basic human anatomy. I don't need to have a lesson every time you walk by me. That's trying to be sexy. But a girl can be attractive and do the best with what she's got.

6:22 And if she's got too much, she can do something to lose some of it. You see? And if she doesn't have enough, well, she can wear the kind of clothing which she's one of my daughters is probably going to be unusually tall and angular. We call it, we call it spiders, I mean.

6:41 That's my Heidi, those of you who know her. And she's only 11, but she's already 5'1", or close to 5'2". She's getting up close to her mummy. And, well, certain types of clothes is where it takes the sharp edges off her bony elbows and her bony shoulders and her long, long legs.

6:58 And as she gets older, she'll begin to mature and fill out. Granted, but Beth is the opposite. Beth is going to be more squat, built more to the ground.

7:14 And already, as father and mother, we're trying to make the girls conscious of this. So that when they dress, we're trying to cultivate in Beth the realization she's going to have to dress in terms of the way God made her. And Heidi, the way God made her. Trying to get them to see that they are to do the best with what God has given them.

7:34 And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's sinful not to do so. It's a poor testimony. And so there is this matter of making ourselves more attractive in the same way we do fellas.

7:46 There's some of us who think we could do well to go to a hairstylist and ask him, you know, what's the best thing to do with this mop of stuff I've got here? And if you're too dumpy, start doing some exercise. Invest a few bucks in barbells or a bulwark or something else. And begin to try to put a little solid muscle where you're flabby.

8:10 Oh, those are perfectly legitimate things. We have a stewardship of our physical frame. And we must continue to recognize that. All right?

Judging a Potential Spouse by Their Mother

8:18 I think if the person who submitted this question doesn't feel it's answered satisfactorily, I'll be glad to meet with him or her afterwards. All right? Favorite question? Certainly must have with all the material we've thrown at you.

8:34 Yes? The question is, someone has been told, if you want to see what a girl is like, see what her mother is like. Well, there's an element of truth there in that, generally speaking, a girl will be strongly influenced by the maternal influence. But I would only say there's an element of truth in there because there are too many other factors that enter into the picture, the major one being the measure of grace that God has given.

9:11 Suppose the mother is an unconverted woman. And in her unconverted state, she shows a rebellion to God by being utterly insubordinate to her husband. She's a veritable witch. She runs the show.

9:21 She's domineering. She's bossy. Now, here's this girl you're beginning to be interested in. She's a woman.

9:25 She's a woman. She's a woman. She's a woman. She's a woman.

9:29 She's become a Christian. She's seen in the Scripture that a woman's role is one of submissiveness to her husband. She's framing a totally different notion. She sees the things in her mother that sicken her as a Christian.

9:42 It'd be totally unfair to judge that girl by her mother. Totally unfair. So, I think there's only an element of truth in that, but only, and I would never make that a rule to come. I'm not marrying her mother.

9:53 I'm marrying her. I want to know what she's like. Then I'll get to know her. That's all I want to know.

9:57 For now. Because a mother might have virtue, she doesn't. And they never have. It's more comfortable to give me, you know, if she's not capable.

10:07 You know, a mother sure kept a nice house, but look at this one.

Appropriate Length of Courtship and Engagement

10:13 All right? Yes, sir. I have a question. .

10:39 I don't think you can legislate that. The length of time will be determined by many, many variable factors. Suppose the fellow and girl we're talking about as in the case of what's happened in our own assembly have attended the same church for a year, two, three, four, five years. They've sat under the same ministry.

10:59 They've had much opportunity for casual contact. They've shared in weekends like this. They've shared together in prayer meetings. There have been many opportunities for general acquaintance, general knowledge.

11:12 They know what their spiritual dimensions are, their spiritual perspectives, their theological concepts are. Well, it's obvious. It's obvious that a relationship like that could develop into serious courtship and commitment and engagement legitimately so much quicker than something, say, two of you may meet here this weekend and begin to correspond and you live miles apart and you begin to share letters. But letters are a very poor basis to really understand someone.

11:39 Maybe someone has no gift of expression and only one-tenth of their virtue is coming through the pen. Someone else, they've got ten times more virtue in the pen than they do in themselves. In that case, the period of courtship would be much longer. And there's so many variables, too many variables to say you must court for at least three months or six months.

12:01 I think it's safe to say, it's safe to say it's better to err by being a little cautious and waiting a little longer to commit yourself than to get burned. But I think in every relationship where it's developed to the place where there's really some measure of self-disclosure, then it's unfair for a fellow to keep their girl if she's a marriageable age just hanging there in a state of limbo, be quicks and be queens. And I've had to talk to some of our fellows about that, and in one case I know it's prevailed and the marriage has been resolved.

12:43 I ain't looking to know about that.

12:52 I can just feel the heat from his red face.

13:07 This is their fourth anniversary. One week they were married and married again. All right. All right, further questions?

Facilitating Christian Social Interaction for Singles

13:19 Yes, Bob? One of the things that I thought about when we were in school, was the idea of a sort of communal day where a bunch of guys kind of go over and ask a bunch of questions. And you could actually have them in Christian circles, where there wasn't the idea of putting the ego on the line and saying, would you go out with me? Or would you talk the same evening together?

13:41 It was just sort of, you know, hey, we're still in a place where a bunch of you like to come along. And that got to the point, like, we're doing my thing here. It was always that way. And there was never any more of, like, you know, that personal contact.

13:56 And, like, putting the veil of ego on the line when you turn down and things like that. And it felt really bad. I'm sorry if you have to comment on that. Yes, yes.

14:08 I think it's a very vital matter that Bob has brought up, that it is an ideal situation, if possible, to get eligible males and females together in a generally structured situation that is not one-on-one. You share a basic Christian perspective, much like the Friday night class that, you know, that's the number of deposes back at Trinity. However, however, this situation can't remain static. One of two things happens.

14:39 Either you begin to feel uncomfortable in that kind of mixed situation, or when you get negative polarity next to positive polarity, something's gonna happen. So what happens is, and I think this is, we see it happening in our own situation. You know, I mean, I've had a number of guys come to me in the past few weeks. All of them attend that Friday night class.

15:04 I ain't squealing, but I've had them coming. So what do I do, Pastor? I can no longer just look at a dozen Christian girls, but I find my eyes going to one amongst those seven. See?

15:18 So that this then, and this is what's good with it, it gives you that non-structural situation to tend to see people in a general way, but then it will lead to the singling out of that one that you would like to strike a deeper acquaintance with. And that's perfectly normal and natural, and people should not feel, oh, our situation's getting spoiled, now some wanna go one-on-one, see? No, no. It is abnormal for people of marriageable age to be content with mixed social groups.

15:48 If you can be content with that, you probably have the gift of salvation. I've said to my wife time after time, I said, honey, am I some kind of a wicked old man? I said, man, if I was sitting here in Trinity Church, a single man, with the available girls, with the character traits that I've seen in many of them, I would at least have tried with about three or four of them. Whether I'd have gotten the first base, I don't know, but just to sit and not try, I really, it's just an anomaly for me, and it leads me to believe that there are these problems, because the order of the day has disrupted domestic circumstances and sexual perversion and lack of identity of maleness and femaleness, there are these fears that are indisposing people, short-circuiting, I guess is the best way, short-circuiting their normal, God-given maturation in this whole area of desiring someone of the opposite sex, etc. And that's why I hope a weekend like this will help to mend some of those circuits. So that you begin to send out the rights to measure signals. All right? Bob? Is that...

17:00 Yes, sir? Well, we'll try to move it if we can help. A weekend like this is an impression of me to some of us, because, you know, we have a situation where, you know, something like this is the only communication that performs within the gift of a single sex.

17:28 Yes, I know you all better. The laughter is really just...

17:32 is just the echo of others' convictions. Yeah.

18:11 I had my ego wounding before I came.

18:24 But... But, you know, some things, you know, this... this composes...

18:35 This is all... The craving is often to be a natural thing.

18:42 You know, a... You know, the alley...

18:50 Yeah. Here I am...

18:52 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pastoral Role in Supporting Singles and Matchmaking

18:56 Well, I think this is where proper pastoral counseling and proper pastoral perspective is so essential. I think it's high time in our evangelical churches and our Reformed churches as well that we come head-on with this matter of singles. That's what I've tried to do in preparing these lectures, to come at the thing head-on. It's a problem, and it's a real problem, and it's really with us right now.

19:20 And I think we need to get rid of some of our unbiblical concepts and hang-ups and some of our Victorian reservations and these things. And I don't have all the answers, but I think, you know, I think at least this is a start to get it flushed out where we're not embarrassed to talk about our singleness and the peculiar problems and burdens of our singleness and the peculiar things that you've mentioned. You know, you're saying, in essence, why, yes, I would like to put myself down where there were more eligible girls, but if I do, is it immediately...

19:53 Am I, you know, immediately marked off as a woman hunter? You know, am I going to scatter the women like sheep before an angry bear, you see? And that's a real problem. But I think here again, if these perspectives are being dealt with properly at the eldership level and trying to give more direction, such as we're giving here, then less and less, I should think this problem would exist.

20:20 But that's a very, very profoundly disturbing question that I think we need to wrestle with. Now, I've come to the position where I no longer am at all embarrassed to do some cooperative matchmaking. In other words, I have never come up to any fellow in the church and said, now, look, I think you ought to start taking a shine to her. I mean, to me, that's none of my business.

20:47 But these fellows come to me with this whole matter and say, boy, I just don't know, and I wonder this, I wonder that. It's not beyond me to say, well, look, I've known this one and this one for X number of years. Here's the virtues, here's the vices, here's the things. Man, I'd give it a try with this one.

21:06 And several of those have eventuated in marriage. Now, I'm not going to say I kidded you about this thing, but Roger's interest in Jane preceded my giving him a push in certain areas. I mean, he was in the way before I nudged him. I just helped nudge him a little bit.

21:20 But there are one or two instances where, under God, I was able, actually, in a sense, to take the fellow's hand and the girl's hand and put together and say, now, walk a bit and begin to get to know each other, where I've seen those hands join with a man's hand. And I don't feel I was carnal in doing that any more than Abraham's servant was sent out of the Lord to get a wife for Isaac. I think there's the matter of God using the means. And I think we need, at this point, to see if our pastors and elders will see this dimension and we'll feel that we can have them as a liaison, it will be helpful.

21:54 Now, they can't choose a mate for us. Now, here again, some are fearful of their ability to make a good decision. I've had some want me to choose a husband or wife. I say, wait a minute, man, I'm not taking that on me.

22:04 Because if you end up with a mess, then you're going to blame me. And I, you know, I don't want that thing. I've got enough monkeys on my back without that. Does this help?

22:17 I don't have all the answers, but at least I can... No, no, no.

22:22 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's pretty well understood. You girls would know better, you know, because you talk together and things that you wouldn't normally share with your fellows or even with your elders. But I think it's pretty well known that when we have a single girl who moves from somewhere else and comes into Trinity, it's not just for the mimicy of the word.

22:47 I mean, isn't that pretty well understood by the girls? Or isn't it? No? Well, maybe you can't see I'm reading into what I know.

22:55 I mean, I've had people write me who shared this problem and said, at least there are more fellows up in your area than where we are. Would there be an objection to our coming? I said, no. Why should there be objections?

23:07 And we've tried to give them counsel. So I think it's a legitimate area of possible concern. All right? Further questions?

Healing from Past Relationship Scars

23:17 Yes, Don?

23:38 Yes. If we have scars from bad associations, then there are several things. Number one is simply to observe happy families. And that's been a joy.

23:47 We've had two or three marriages in Trinity in the past two or three years that have been the direct result of exposure to happy couples. People that I could parade here, today, who would say, well, I know he wouldn't mind me using him. I'll use Keith Gates as an example. You see, as someone who said he determined that he wouldn't be married probably ever, if not for years.

24:09 He got living in Geneva House. He saw John and Carla Spence. And he said, man, this is the greatest. And the Lord began to persuade our peers.

24:16 And it wasn't long before the Lord brought him and Christy together. And they've been married now for a year. And I could say two, yeah, I know at least two or three others I could name their names as examples of that very thing. So the total exposure here again is God's wisdom in putting us in the church.

24:31 So it's the healing power of the church. You see happily married couples. You know, you see old duffers like myself married 18 years. And really, not just talking.

24:41 You know, you could fool people in a retreat like this, but I'm talking to people who have lived there. You know, you see the interaction of the family. And that has a wonderful way of saying it doesn't need to be like that. This is what God's grace can make it.

24:53 And then I think secondly, you need to fill your mind with the biblical norms. Read Ephesians 5. Read 1 Peter 3. Read the story of that beautiful relationship with Isaac and Rebekah and how the Lord brought them together.

25:07 Then read books like Designed for Christian Marriage by Harvey Small. So that your mind is being renewed. Think that renewing of the mind that gradually then will rebuild those circuits that have been shorted because of these past distasteful experiences. Those, I think, Donna, are some of the tangible steps we can make.

Discerning the Gift of Celibacy vs. the Call to Marriage

25:27 All right? Yes? In other respects, I have a question about the basis of theology and the opinions. You talked about God's redemption for most of the poor people.

25:39 The opinions of God are very broad. And particularly, you spoke about the gifts and sorrows that there are in the fact that you can be content with God's responsibility or the kind of protection that God has given you. I want to ask you this. How can an individual do you know what kind of healing is involved to know whether God is giving you that gift?

26:04 And if you don't see those things in your life, when can you assume that God is giving you those things during the time when you are dead? We can never assume anything with God, but I think we can say there is a presumption in favor of us. You see? Because, again, His thoughts are not our thoughts.

26:22 And we only see this little bracket. God sees the whole expanse of eternity. And how we fit into that. But let me try to address myself to the question.

26:34 Number one, how does a man know if God is giving him the gift of celibacy? Well, I think you need to ask a prior question. What reason do I have to believe that I need that gift? For instance, if God is laying upon a man's heart a certain form of ministry and he's already begun to show skills and ask a piece for it, be it a pioneer missionary endeavor, be it some form of work that means he's constantly on the go, et cetera, and it seems to be clear that God is giving him and it seems to be clear indication that God is fashioning him for a certain career, and if on the surface it seems that marriage is incompatible with that career, all right, now he's got to wrestle this thing through.

27:13 Either the career must change to fulfill the biblical norms or God must give me the grace to pursue this career in his will to his glory while giving me the ability to remain single. And then as he prays, God will help him to be confident. That does not mean God will make a eunuch out of him and neuter his sexual desire. He says, I will forsake my body and keep it under it.

27:34 And I believe he's referring there among other things of his own legitimate sexual desire. He says, he that hath not power over his own body, well, some do, but it's power over a body that still cries. You see, that's why the idea that marriage is a cure-all for all sexual problems, therefore, when I'm married, everything will be all right. No, if you can't control your sexual appetite now, marriage is not going to be a cure-all for all sexual problems.

28:02 It's not going to be a cure-all for all sexual problems. It's not going to be a cure-all for all sexual problems. Marriage doesn't make a physically attractive male non-attractive now to a woman or a physically attractive woman non-attractive to a man. Your hormones can get stirred up inside or outside of marriage, you see, so that it's in the actual situation if a person finds grace from God to remain confident, he is not committing fornication, he is not so distracted by his sexual drive.

28:31 Some people find it a place where the distraction is overbearing, just the sheer physical pressure. It's not that the sleep leaves them for nights on end, etc. Well, then it's obvious God is not giving them the gift of confidence and therefore they need actively to seek a wife and if necessary change the career to fit that marriage state. And then what was the other question?

28:57 There was another part of it that in answering that... Yes.

29:03 Yes, there's a presumption in favor of the fact that you're going to need a wife and therefore you need to make this a matter of prayer and ask God to prepare you to be a husband because marriage, you see, 1 Corinthians 7 must never be wrenched loose in Ephesians 5, Genesis 1 and 2. And I've seen some guys that had the attitude, man, I've got to get me a wife because I'm burning this passion because the wife is nothing but some kind of a burden to me. And I've seen in Ephesians 7 where Ephesians 5 and until a man is prepared to take on the responsibilities of selfless love in all of its dimensions he's not in a position to take a wife. Here's the phrase I use with the fellows when I have remarried with Constantine and don't find a honeymoon until you're ready to live with the implications of the marriage state and the implications of reason. The moment a relationship is consummated and the two are married and now with the Savior from here on in you are an extension of me. I will be as solicitous for your well-being as I am for my own. That's Ephesians 5.

30:18 So let men to love their wives as constituted their own bodies. That's the proper understanding of the passage. Christ's body is his church. He nourishes and cherishes us because we're a part of him.

30:31 Now he said, husband, you nourish and cherish her psychologically, emotionally, every part of her is to be nourished as being a part of yourself. I say to the fellows, don't you dare go to a marriage that you're willing to live with with the Savior. For once there is between one's last relationship. She is now an extension of me.

30:52 And that's an awesome responsibility. And if the guy's problem is simply a case of jitters and, you know, he just wants his wife to get his jitters, then I say, brother, you just better go out and jog in three miles to get rid of your jitters before you're ready to take a wife. Now I mean that seriously because it's wrong. And I've seen the 1 Corinthians 7 abuse, abuse Christ.

Interracial Marriage and Cultural Differences

31:16 All right? Further questions? Yes sir. Interracial marriages?

31:34 I see absolutely nothing in the word of God that condemns an interracial marriage. I do see that the word of God teaches and condemns a mixed marriage as far as a Christian and a non-Christian. I also see that the word of God tells us we're not tempted and therefore an interracial marriage would be non-desirable only to the extent that many marriages within the same race would be undesirable. There are certain things about it that would not be expedient.

32:07 For instance, if there's such a diversity of cultures, that would be true with two Caucasians. If there's such a diversity of cultural perspectives that people can't lock in to each other's wavelength, then they ought not to marry. But to me, the racial issue is no more vital than those principles. So whatever would make a good Christian marriage in case of boy A and girl B, to me, their racial identity is inconsequential.

32:35 Now there is a second area that you must be concerned about and that is the marriage of our particular calling and station in life. For instance, if I were attempting, if God had given me to minister, say, in the deep South, it would be unlikely that God would have me minister there and take to myself a black woman as my wife. Conversely, there are situations where an interracial marriage is a tremendous impetus to the God. I know a situation where a missionary friend of mine was raised in the Philippines and took a Filipino wife and he gave him great entree to the people. It was his way, in their eyes, to say, you people are so precious in my sight that I'll take one of you to stand by my side for life. An interracial marriage there was a great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great

33:52 great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great Well, again, Don, it's not so much what the differences are as one's ability to cope with them. You see, sometimes the differences can be tremendously enriching, tremendously enriching, if the person is flexible. But now, if their whole mentality and psychology and emotional life is so bound to a given way of doing things,

35:11 and they are very provincial, this is our way, and our way is the right way. That's provincialism. To say this is my way, and it's good, but it's simply our way, and there are a lot of other ways that are equally good, that's a broad thing. But I've met narrow people who identify their way with the best way.

35:27 Well, if you get two people under the same roof with two sets of their way being the best way, you know, so that, again, it's not even so much whether there is a different cultural background, it's how one is adapting. How one is adapting to that, how one views that, and those things come out very, very shortly, Don, in any kind of the development of a relationship. It becomes very, very evident. For instance, when I go to Scotland, when I go to England, when my British friends come over here, I'm sure this will be true when I go to Pakistan and India, there are certain people who are what you would call the typecast individual of that culture.

36:06 You know, we all conjure up the typical Scottish, right? The shorter, stockier man, the thick-haired. Well, now, there are some who are like that, and their Scottish way of doing things or their English way of doing things, South England, North England, you know, you have all kinds of stripes, either in England, you don't want to typecast the average British, but what will happen is some of them, it's obvious, though they like that way and they enjoy being that way, they have no notion that that's the only way to do it, the only way to think, and there's a broadness, a breadth, and a catholicity of sympathy. However, there are other people, they are shocked in every expression of their Christian life and faith.

36:50 Unless you do it their way, you aren't doing it the right way, the spiritual way. Well, that's the narrow kind of provincialism, and this, of course, is the image that the ugly American conveys, you see, when Americans say around, oh, boy, you're too old, you're too old, so that's true in a human relationship between a man and a woman. And if there is that diversity, this flexibility, then it's a wonderful thing. As I intimated...

37:16 I came from a very stable Christian home, ten children, second oldest, I have two fathers, and then I have two, so my brother is the big one. I'm married just upon the marriage ceremony to five of my own sisters. All kinds of security, you see. I never thought about, am I loved?

37:34 I mean, it never entered my mind. I mean, I was loved so what? What's the big deal? You know, I mean, there was lots of security.

37:41 Well, my wife's coming from a totally different background. This has greatly enriched our lives and my sympathy, because I have been able, to read the world through her eyes. And in turn, she's been able to read through my eyes things that she never saw. So this diversity has been tremendously helpful to our future.

Developing Independence from Parents

37:57 All right? Any further questions? Yes. I see brightly what you're saying.

38:35 We could phrase the question this way. Should we, if we, you know, finish high school and spend a couple of years at home, should we begin to think in terms of weaning ourselves away from our parents' oversight and control, maybe by getting married? Getting an apartment and another Christian girl and beginning to develop some independence? Well, I should say again, you can't generalize.

38:55 Some are able to develop their independence while still living with their parents. The parents are mature enough to encourage this development. So they begin to back off in decision-making and the rest. And maybe this person will come, this girl or fellow, and say, Mom and Dad, what do you think?

39:12 They'll say, sir, she asked enough for you. You're 21 years old. That's your fault. And they'll bend the child's nose, because they realize that child might not be able to develop independence.

39:22 And likewise, the person recognizes it. So they can make that transition from dependent to a more mature independent very naturally within the home. But there are some situations where the parents can't make the adjustment. I mean, they just still look upon you as their little girl or as their little boy.

39:45 And therefore, the only way they can make the adjustment is that you can have your good not evil spoken of. Otherwise, every time you're asserting a legitimate area of independence, they look upon it as indifference or rebellion. And your good is being evil spoken of. Well, the Bible says, let not your good be evil spoken of.

40:02 The only alternative then is to move on. Explain the reasons why. And then continue to show love and concern with phone calls and business. Much the way couples have to do when they're married.

40:13 And they leave father and mother in that final sentence and plead to husband and wife. And that adjustment, you see, is not only difficult at times for the child, for the young man or young woman, but it's difficult for the couple. I mean, they've invested a lot of years and a lot of time and a lot of years with their parents. Now, suddenly, they start cutting those invisible umbilical cords.

40:34 You know, it's easy for the doctor to cut the one in the delivery room, but this one is not one. You know, there's hundreds of cords that have been established. And now they start sniffing them. It's not easy.

40:45 So I think you need to ask yourself, are my parents able to make the adjustment to my independence? Am I able to make it under their roof? If not, in this case, it might be wise for me to leave out. Does that help you to get on with some things a bit?

Financial Preparation for Marriage and the Value of Trades

40:59 Yes. In the back? Yes, Solomon. Well, this again is a problem, Solomon.

41:08 It comes under the area of preparation. And if I want to be a husband, then I must seek under God to find a situation where I can adequately provide for my children. For myself, for a wife, and for a child. And may I say at this point that I'm glad that there is a turn away from this obsession with collared and white collar work and beginning to be some appreciation of artists and ladies.

41:40 Now, there's difficulty with it, because in some trades there's such a disproportionate provision made. Carpenters getting, not in California, this time I told you the last thing was up to $20 an hour. Unbelievable. I mean, it was just way out of sight.

42:01 And of course, this makes it difficult, because maybe the machinist trade, the top dollar for a man who's worked for 20 years is $5 an hour. And he has real skills far beyond maybe someone who's only been a carpenter for 15 years. But in spite of those particular problems, I think the old Jewish notion that a fellow, every young Jewish boy learns a trade. That's why Paul could make tents.

42:25 So that he always had something to rely upon to make him a desirable commodity in the labor market. Or give him the ability to have something to put into the selling market that was a desirable commodity. But that's another whole area, this whole matter of occupation. And maybe you ought to have another retreat sometime, an occupational retreat, Pastor Barnhart, in which we wrestle through some of these things.

42:48 What is the thing that a girl does? She's praying that God will bring her Adam to her, but in the meantime there's no Adam on the horizon. And then you know, there's one down underneath the horizon.

43:03 What does she do? Well, this is another area, and it's another whole kettle of fish, which needs to be saved. Well, it's about time for us to stop and do one last question, to deal with this. Now see, there is another element here, and this is what you girls should understand, though it would be foolish of you girls to say, I do, to a fellow that you'd have to end up fully supporting.

43:41 I've seen fellows who never really settled down to serious application to their job until they had the incentive of knowing they had to provide for their wife and the kids. In that sense, the women and the responsibilities were a tremendous means of grace to make them really not the best. There's a sense in which they really had no reason to stick at anything before. Now they realize, I've got a woman's mouth to feed, or she won't even let me get a ring on her finger until I prove myself.

44:08 And some of you girls could be real help to some fellow who begins to soft-talk. You can show real interest. You say, look, Buster, I don't want to be out bringing the gravy, man.

44:18 You show yourself confident to stick at something, then I may let you slip a ring on my finger. But until then, you just keep your ring in your pocket. And, uh, well, you've got to be sweeter than that. I've said it.

Wisdom Regarding Long Engagements and Early Marriage

44:31 Yes, Pastor Barnhart, these engagements are not wholesome. So that you're normal, and all your systems are tuned in, once you know that in principle you've already committed yourself to each other, and you're developing a real wholeness of relationship, it's often hard, often hard to put the brakes on that relationship. Because God has made us show everything, you know, He's being violated, and there's that commitment to sharing life, and there has been developed to be grassroots affinity and perspective of life and the world and God and truth, and you're together. It takes unusual discipline, iron will, and concluding down to earth, practical guidelines to keep that relationship from degenerating into fornication. And it's not because you're wicked, it's simply because you're human.

45:57 It's human. And, uh, so generally speaking, these engagements are not wise. So I would say to fellows, don't slip a ring on a finger until you're prepared within a short time, unless there are unusually abnormal circumstances, to consummate that relationship. And as far as the other is concerned, often my counsel to couples is this.

46:17 If you face realistically your financial situation, and you're willing to live within your means and scrape together for the privilege of being able to begin to live together as husband and wife, then fine, go ahead. You don't need a bank account, just so long as you're not tempting God. There is a reasonable means of supply with your present circumstances, and you're going to be content maybe to, you know, uh, have orange straights for, for dress and drawers for a while, and either couple could have done that. When we first furnished our home after we were married, and we were living on a, we were living on a Tuesday, and we just went down to an old side street in Lancaster, and we found a new set of old, over-stuffed, outdated credits for fifty bucks, for a whole living room set, and we paid another twenty-five bucks for some foot covers, and we furnished our living room, twenty-five, seventy-five bucks, and it worked fine, until, as we were able then, one by one, to begin to replace things with more substantial. So, with the fellow and girl sharing this dimension of perspective, then I think again, because marriage is a means of grace, and the only way to learn to start living together is to start living together. It's hard work. And there is that delicate line.

47:28 You see, generally speaking, the average fellow and girl is not really prepared for the demands of marriage before at least getting close to the mid-twenties. Generally speaking. And the girl always wonders, well, boy, you know, she might have gotten that out of her system in a couple of years, in a set of clothes, in a hospital, or something else. And if she has, and she gets it out of her system, then it isn't so glamorous for her.

47:51 Where she goes right from high school into marriage, there's always, when she starts facing the same dishes, same dirty underwear, same humdrum, many times there's a growing discontent, you know, that's so glamorous out there. But if she's had a taste of that and said, look, that's nothing. I like the home with all of its humdrums as the place for which God included me. But now, if she goes much beyond that, or if a fellow goes beyond that, then they begin both to get set in their ways of learning to live together much harder.

48:22 Because there's a sort of a, there's sort of an ossifying of your emotional and psychological joints over the passage of the years. And some of the most difficult adjustments I've seen have been with those who've waited too long to be married, in the case where it would be too affordable. It's the case where one has already been married and then can bring into the relationship factors of a previous experience where many times it's, well, it's all pretty, let me say, I do deeply appreciate the privilege of coming and ministering to you. And there's only one favor I ask in return. Because the demands and preparations for this cut into regular study time, and I just couldn't think of anything but this stuff, even as I tried, I've still got a lot of homework to do before feeling ready to preach tomorrow morning. And I would appreciate your prayers that the Lord be on your face and ensure that Pastor Barnhart can say the same. Well, he doesn't have to preach tomorrow.

49:28 He's sending down one of our other pastors to preach tomorrow. He's got it easy. But I have to go back and take the adult class and preach, and then I have a full afternoon of counseling tomorrow. So I just want to say thank you so much.