During the Session, Part 2

Introduction: Assumptions and Realities in Assessing Progress

0:02 We come today to Roman numeral number three, assessing progress and steadfastness of resolution. And by way of introduction, I want to say basically two things, as you see in your notes. As with so many other aspects of pastoral counsel, we are assuming that the sheep are being honest with us. There is a prejudice of goodwill and an assumption of honesty in the pastor-sheep relationship.

0:36 But while we assume that, it's not always the reality where we are dealing with a loaded paradise in that we are interacting with the people on the assumption that they are being honest and transparent, when in reality they are being something less.

0:57 And there are pastoral visits where you will ask people, are there any particular problems that need concentrated pastoral attention? What about the health of your marriage? And it's not a healthy marriage, but the signs of that ill health are not patent, and they're not being honest with you. Either the wife has been intimidated that if she told one of the pastors how bad things were, he'd chew her up, or maybe he's fearful if he tells how bad it is, she'll be like that drunken...

1:26 dripping faucet, or that rain upon a tin roof. And then, we must never forget, Ananias and Sapphira, in the midst of that unusually concentrated outpouring of the Spirit on the Jerusalem church, close on the heels of Pentecost, they agreed together. And tempting the Holy Spirit was expressed in lying to the servant of God. So that in assessing progress and steadfastness, we've got to remember that we're making an assumption, and that the sheep are honest, and it's right to make that assumption, but realism says what appears to be may not really be the situation we're dealing with.

2:07 And by way of introduction to all that we say under this heading, that must be understood, and then we must underscore again that these are simply guidelines and suggestions using the medical model. We cannot put these things into airtight boxes and neatly...

2:27 packaged categories, so that as you continue to interact with people and seek to move on to dismissal, that is, you are no longer going to meet with them in regular sessions to address a specific problem or set of problems, there is still the necessity of assessing their progress. To put it in biblical terms, you want to make sure that if, in the language of Ephesians 6, they are standing...

2:57 they are, nonetheless, continuing to stand. Stand, and having done all, stand. Or in the language of Galatians 5, you want to see if they are standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made them free. Now, for the sake of categories that will help us work through the material, let's first of all take up large letter A, assessing progress while engaged in ongoing intensive counseling.

Assessing Progress in Ongoing Intensive Counseling

3:28 That is, assessing progress in a series of counseling sessions. Suppose you're eventually going to have six. What do you do in sessions 2, 3, 4, and 5, and the front end of six, in assessing progress? Well, somewhere near the beginning of each session, in this situation of ongoing counseling, you should ask some specific questions in order to assess progress.

3:53 You are not in the business of putting band-aids on bleeding elderly, or kissing Sonny's finger to make it feel better. Remember what our goal is? Evangelical transformation. We're dealing in gospel dynamics, where there is an actual refinement of character into the image of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

4:19 And so we need to assess progress, because we are not there simply to have a catharsis of somebody, or to have a catharsis of somebody, or to have a catharsis of somebody, telling us over and over again how bad off they are. Now, you'll have people that that's all they want, is get rid of the pressure of the consciousness of guilt connected with failure. And if you let them, you'll simply be the sponge on which they dump this horrible syndrome of failure and the catharsis of confessing it to someone. To go back to failure, and that's not what you're about.

Is the Patient Taking the Medicine?

4:52 And so you have an obligation before God, as a gospel minister, to assess the progress while engaged in ongoing intensive counseling. Following on with the medical model, there are some questions you will want to ask in this matter of assessing progress. First of all, is the patient taking the medicine? In your initial session, you isolated some of the specific problems.

5:18 You sought to identify the problems in biblical terms. I'm going back to our previous lectures. You sought to give some biblical medicine. You sought to give some direction.

5:27 You sought to give some directions of how much of the medicine to take and how frequently. Well, when the patient comes back, ask them, are you taking the medicine?

5:37 Hearing what the medicine is, not taking it. And you will find that sometimes they're not. And you may have to preach to them a sermon on laziness. And I've listed those texts in Proverbs, all of which apply to the matter of the curse that is upon the sluggard.

5:55 The sluggard desires and has not.

5:59 The sluggard is likened to a thief. The sluggard is the one who will never, never make progress. And you may have to preach to the person. Be very directive and confrontational.

6:16 And say, John, we spent two hours and God helped us to identify your problem. Did he not? Yes, Pastor. And did not God help us to see the biblical antidote?

6:29 Yes. And did not God help us to see the biblical antidote? Yes. And did you not agree that this is, yes.

6:31 Why have you not done it? Well, I, you know what God calls you? God calls you a sluggard. And you are going to go on in your poverty if you don't deal with this matter.

6:44 And now, you're preaching a sermon to him on the curse that's on the head of the sluggard. Don't go on and give him more medicine when the medicine for the malady already identified is not being taken. Stop there. Preach a sermon to him on being a sluggard.

6:59 And then pray and say, now, we have nothing more to talk about until you can call me up to set up the next appointment and tell me you've been taking the medicine. You see? Heavy-handed? No.

7:11 That's being a wise, faithful shepherd to the souls of men. You do that person no good to let him come and whimper about his pattern of defeat when he's not taking the medicine that he himself acknowledged he saw from the Bible was the divine medication that he ought to take. All right? So, is the patient taking the medicine?

Is the Medicine Working? Measuring Progress in Ingrained Patterns

7:32 Another question, is the medicine working? How you don't know? Well, at this point, you may have to help the person to give an accurate and realistic standard for measuring progress. And brethren, I wish someone had told me this early in my ministry.

7:48 And I hope you'll incorporate it early in yours. Particularly with ingrained patterns. And especially if they have relationship to physical appetites. Physical appetites.

8:00 Physical appetites. Problems with weight control and excessive eating. Problems with masturbation.

8:09 Problems with inordinate sleep. Patterns that are as near to you as your very being. All right? You've got to help people to realize progress is to be measured in terms of, notice the three things.

8:23 Check the frequency of falls. You're dealing with a young man who started masturbating before he even came into puberty. Six, seven years old. Three, four, five times a week.

8:36 It's ingrained into the very constitution of his existence. With or without fantasizing, he's become hooked on the sensuous pleasure of an orgasm with his hand around his penis.

8:51 Now, that doesn't die quickly, at least in my experience of dealing with men, quickly or easily. And the guilt and discouragement. You've got to help the person. Have little check marks on his own calendar known only to him that he can look back and say, where once, four or five times a week was my pattern, God's helped me, that last week it was only twice.

9:14 That's progress. And you've got to help him. That doesn't justify the two times. But it doesn't negate the three times that he didn't indulge it.

9:23 And you've got to help him to see that as he sought to take the medicine, load his mind with gospel motives, my body's a temple of the Holy Spirit. This thing. This thing that I used for self-gratification was bought by the blood of Christ. You've applied those things we talked about earlier.

9:40 The principles of 1 Corinthians 6. You've sought to give him all the biblical motivation. He starts to apply them. And he can't come back and say, I haven't touched myself in two weeks.

9:51 And he's ashamed. And you've got to help him to see his progress is in terms of less frequency of fall. Intensity of fall. A man struggling with pornography.

10:02 Where once it was a passion. A pattern of stopping by the shops, buying the stuff, spending two hours looking at it. Indulging in masturbation and then in self-loathing, throw it away. When he's been enabled to walk away from the stand and not buy it.

10:17 Though he looked and he shouldn't. That's progress for him. You've got to help him to see the progress. He's aiming at this total destruction.

10:26 He's not said, well, you know, if I can just get to where I can glance at the covers and not buy it. No, no. He's aiming. At its absolute eradication.

10:35 He wants it as dead as it'll be when he's glorified. That's the heart of a Christian. But in aiming for that, his progress needs to be measured in terms of frequency, intensity, and this is critical, length of rebound time. Whereas once he might have let himself be loaded down with guilt for a day, two days, and you know from your own experience, you're never more vulnerable to indulge in the very sin that's put you in the dumps.

11:03 Then when you're in the dumps over the sin, right? You have no heart to fight when you're swallowed up with self-loathing of unresolved guilt. It's the most debilitating thing in the world. And you help the person to see, all right, you fell on Tuesday.

11:21 How long was that before you went broken to the cross of Christ, pleading nothing but the blood of Christ, and picked yourself up by the grace of God and started to fight again? Well, it was three hours. Well, what was it before? It was a whole day.

11:35 That's progress, my brother. That's progress. The God who helped you to come up quicker from that skirmish in which you fell, can he not help you to come up more quickly after the next skirmish? This is critical.

11:50 And this is not theoretical, brethren. Again and again, in labor, and there are certain things that have died slowly in my life, I've had the tick marks on the calendar, so that I've been able, and the devil would accuse me, you know, this is the devil's master stroke. Oh, it's a little thing. Indulge it.

12:06 Then you've indulged it. He said, look, that's so big a thing. How can you be a Christian if you did that? He changes his tune.

12:13 Minimizes it to get you into it, and then maximizes to keep you under the guilt of it. That's his device. And when I've been able to take out my calendar and say, I did not indulge in that area from here to here, I have made progress. And I bless God that some of those things, it's been years since I've had to put tick marks on the calendar, but I had to start where I'm urging you to help others to start.

12:37 And you've got to start that practically. The man who's just been instinctive to shoot off sarcastic words to his wife, it's his naturalist breathing, he was brought up in a home where that's the kind of speech that was constantly indulged between his mother and father, and he's determined to load gospel shot against this thing and see it lie dead at his feet. But you've got to help him in this area of assessing the frequency, the intensity, the length of the rebound. People with depression, people who have a problem, chronic gossipers, people who've had a difficulty of any kind of structure in their devotional life.

13:16 The progress will not be from devotions once a week to never missing for a month. It'll be usually from once a week to some degree of consistency twice a week to some degree of consistency three times a week. And you've got to work them through that and help them to see that God is there. And you've got to work them through that and help them to see that God is there.

13:33 And you've got to work them through that and help them to see that God is there. And you've got to work them through that and help them to see that God is there. And you've got to work them through that and help them to see that God is there. God is enabling them to grow in grace.

If Medicine Isn't Working, Why Not?

13:36 But then the third question in this evaluation and assessing progress in the midst of ongoing counseling, third question, is the medicine, if the medicine is not working, why not? And under that, three questions. Is it the right medicine? And here you can add these two texts.

13:56 As I reworked the thing afresh, even after dictating the fresh notes to Ann and went back over it, I said, with my naive biblicism I like it when I can get a text for every point Titus 1.13 says for this cause reprove them sharply that they may be sound in the faith healthiness is predicated in Titus 1.13 upon what sharp rebuke 2 Timothy 2.24 says the servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle to all men in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth sometimes the patient needs the gentle patient low key application of gospel truth sometimes that's the wrong medicine they need a spiritual slap in the face reprove them sharply that they may be sound in the faith so if you're all gentleness when you ought to be sharp and you're sharp when you ought to be gentle you're not given the right medicine then you want to ask is it a carnal use of the medicine Jeremiah 17.5-9 cursed be the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his arm and whose heart departs from Jehovah he shall be like a heath in the desert shall not see when good comes shall inhabit the parched place of

15:25 wilderness where no water is but blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord and whose hope the Lord is he shall be and many describes the contrast and then the final verse is you know the heart is deceitful above all things and at no point is it more deceitful in this matter of self trust and someone may come out of the counseling session say man I got the right medicine I've got a wise pastor and his confidence is in the medicine and not in the God with whom the best of means are but means of best unless he blesses it so you may have to ask if the medicine's not working why not is it the right medicine is it a carnal use of the proper medicine is the spirit make that a capital S is the spirit applying the medicine add the text Zechariah 4 6 not by might nor by power but by my spirit set the Lord of hosts in John 15 5 without me you can do nothing and we might want to add 1 Corinthians 4 7 I'm sorry 3 7 so then neither is he that waters anything nor he that plants nor waters but God who gives the increase if we really believe that the spirit of God is sovereign in his operations not only in regeneration but in sanctification there are mysteries that we will never be able to put into our neat formulas

16:53 so we need to perhaps ask the question is the spirit of God applying the medicine is it that we are not consciously praying that he will those some of the questions that will have to be asked and I commend to you the Christian counselors manual page 459 through 61 is the section where Dr. Adams has a helpful list of 50 failure factors and though I don't endorse all of them there's a lot of good helpful material in there and I commend it to you for your future use now as in all other areas of pastoral involvement brethren you may have to adopt a more rigid pattern at the outset as in preaching and homiletics I keep telling you this and then as you come into a greater awareness of who you are and the level of your gift Romans 12 3 you'll have more and more of your own tailor made eclectic framework but better to start with another's that is proven and fixed and modify then feel your way along and fly by the seat of your pants ok so though these are just guidelines and they're not rules I hope they're guidelines that you just don't sell well that's interesting but we're told you bought with a price being up to slaves and men I'll just strike out on my own no that's to put yourself in a category that's not too flattering

Assessing Steadfastness After Intensive Counseling (Post-Dismissal)

18:22 alright B assessing steadfastness in resolution of the problem or problems what do we do after we finish the six sessions we judge and the person judges and we're mutually agreed there is no real necessity for ongoing specific structured individual shepherd sheep interaction over this problem or problems does that mean that we then just walk away and make no future assessment of the fruit of those sessions now that's both unwise and irresponsible to the souls of those to whom we minister these are the post special counseling session interactions now as I've I've noted in your notes, it is a wonderful thing to see the kind of progress which leads to dismissal from intense counseling to an ordinary pastoral interaction. And that's all you're doing. You're not having a different relationship to the person. You are having now a more normal interaction with that individual with whom you would have these special sessions or a special session.

19:34 But because we don't believe in any form of perfectionism, that ground gained in grace is ground forever secured. We don't believe that. I hope you don't believe that. 1 Corinthians 10, 12, Wherefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

19:57 Matthew 26, 41, Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The great apostle, 1 Corinthians, 9, I buffet my body and keep it under lest in preaching to others I myself should be a documus. Though in ministering to the Corinthians he had denied himself a wife, denied himself legitimate support, when he writes his letter he says, I am still a man who knows he's in a minefield. And I beat my body till black and blue, lest indulging my flesh I apostatize.

20:33 And then even the flip side of that, whatever grace has, has been imparted in the given area. Paul could say to the Thessalonians, the other text I've quoted, he said, I don't need to write to people.

20:47 That's chapter 2. I'm trusting my memory here. I'm not sure. That's the one text I didn't look up in that corpus.

20:54 Why did I put, that doesn't sound right, 4, 9, and 10. Yes, it is 4, 9, and 10. Concerning love of the brethren, you have no need one write you. For you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

21:05 For indeed you do it to all the brethren that are in Macedonia. But, we exhort you, brethren, to bow more and more. I don't need to write to you, but I am. You got it?

21:14 It is good. It could get better and gooder. So, press on. So, there's the principle of assessing steadfastness in resolution.

Methods for Post-Counseling Assessment

21:23 So, you must have some method or methods of determining whether people are standing in their liberty and growing in the areas where there's been gospel triumph. Now, when you're into pastoral relations, I trust you will, seek to establish some framework for periodic, focused, pastoral assessment of your sheep. Whatever you want to call that. And I am loath to set up a new orthodoxy that says once every six months you must have a this or a that, whatever you want to call it.

22:00 But I am saying that in the ordinary discharge of pastoral involvement there should be some framework whereby, the sheep know and you know that you can sit down with that sheep and have what is akin to your annual physical check-up with your doctor. It's not at your annual physical check-up that you're hoping to discover a tumor or anything else. You're going, with no particular problem, as preventive medicine to get a baseline of your overall physical condition. So, whatever you call that, certainly that would be a framework where you would say, now, John and Mary, it's actually been said, in six months since our last counseling session, everything I've seen indicates that everything we addressed, God is helping you to grow in that area. Is that true? You're talking with that young believer that he's come to a place where he can say, the addictive power of pornography is beneath his feet by the grace of Christ. So now you say, John, we've not spoken too much about this.

23:04 Have you continued to have that measure of victory that we knew and to which you testify, when we had that last counseling session? You use the opportunity of that normal, concentrated, spiritual check-up, pastoral interaction in order to get specific about the things that you know are an area of potential weakness, etc. Urge, then, in that last session, now, John, we're going to stop having regular sessions to deal with this matter of your sarcasm with your wife. But, John, please, so that you learn to feel comfortable with being open about this, will you take the initiative to call me periodical?

23:46 And even if I'm not at my desk, will you leave a brief message on my answering machine telling me how you're doing? Encourage the sheep to take the initiative to be open and honest with the shepherd. Encourage them to do that. Another way that reinforces their triumph, but never do this without their consent, is say, now, John, God has really helped you to lay hold of gospel dynamics and principles in putting to death this sarcasm with your wife.

24:17 Or Pete, Harry, Henry, whatever your name is, God's obviously enabled you to make tremendous progress in dealing with the problem of your masturbation. If I have someone else come to me with a similar problem, am I at liberty, if I think it would help them, to send them to you? Oh, yes, whatever I've learned, never do it without, all right? And often again, with sins of addictive nature, despair keeps people from making any progress.

24:46 And when you can say, do you know that you sit with two or three people every Sunday who once did what you're struggling with? I can remember this when we had a woman who had given herself over to bulimia, binging and purging. And I said, do you know there are two or three in the church? No, nobody at Trinity.

25:06 I said, yes. Yeah, I said, yes. In fact, one of them has said, if I ever needed to recommend her to someone struggling, she would be glad. Would you please go to so and so?

25:19 And often just sitting down with a fellow struggler in that area and saying, this is what the grace of God has done. That's the principle of 2 Corinthians 1, 3 and following. God who comforts us in all our tribulation, in order that we may be able to comfort others by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. And so, in this matter of assessing steadfast resolution, not only probe in a regular pastoral interaction with them, encourage them to communicate to you, seek to latch them to someone, seek to make them the one to whom a fellow struggler can attach themselves, and that increases their motivation to stand in the area of their victory.

26:04 Now they know it's not just accountability to God and one of my overseers. Here's a brother or sister who would be so disappointed if the victory to which I testified has to now be jettisoned. And it gives an added motivation for the person who's made progress to stand in that progress. Alright?

26:25 And then, in some things, establish your own verbal code with that individual. There are a number of people in the church, when I ask them in the presence of 20 other people, something like this, how are things going? Or how are things with you? We have our own little code language.

26:43 They know I'm asking you how you're doing about that thing that we've had to deal with for hours. And sometimes just their reaction, not so good. I say, we need the phone call this week, don't we? We haven't disclosed any kind of confidences, but it's that assessing the ongoing progress, even though we're not having specific concentrated counseling sessions.

27:06 You'll have some people, they spontaneously keep you informed. Others, the information comes on their faces. Isaiah says, the show of their countenance to testify against them. Thank God for sheep who can't hide their condition.

27:20 It's all over their faces. They're easy to shepherd. It's the people that only Michael the Archangel, assisted by Gabriel, could even begin to read them. But you have other sheep, you can read them.

27:35 You can tell. Their eyes drop when they meet yours if they've had a defect. And they're sending out as much signals as though they had a big poster stuck on them. I went down under my nemesis this week.

27:47 Well, pick up that signal. Give them a phone call. Mary, I noticed you had that look on your face today. Did I read you rightly?

27:54 Oh, yes, Pastor. I blew it. I got so ugly with my husband. What are you doing about it?

28:01 Are you taking the message? And then you just pick up a few of the threads from a past session. It may mean that you say, hey, maybe we need to have a post-operative session. You see?

28:12 Dr. Schlecker did a good job cutting out all the cancer. But every six months I go to him. I got another visit next month.

28:18 Just had to get my referral slip. Checking up on his patient. Make sure no little cancer cells were floating around in there trying to set up shops. Do a blood test.

28:28 Do what's necessary. Well, do that spiritually. Well, I trust that gives you some working principles relative to the necessary elements of assessing progress instead of doing fastness. Now we come in the fourth place.

Guidelines for Dismissal: Introductory Perspectives

28:40 Guidelines for dismissal. Guidelines for dismissal. The introductory perspectives on dismissal. And the first is just to underscore afresh.

28:54 What a privilege it is. A blessing to carry on this work within the framework of a functioning church. You see, the professional counselor has no previous relationship to the one who comes with the problem. And when he's all done, he dismisses him to what?

29:09 You have all the previous ties of pastor-sheep relationship. Now you enter into this intensive counseling session or sessions. And when you're ready to dismiss them from that, what do you dismiss them to? The total ordinary life of the church.

29:26 But you're never the same and they're never the same. You are enriched by your interaction with that sheep. Your bonds of love and knowledge of the sheep have deepened. Their love and bonds to you have been deepened.

29:41 So you go back to the ordinary relationship but it's an escalated level of relationship which then will take marvelous nuances. When you preach now, you're a different man than before you had those sessions. Well, you're the same man but in their eyes. You're now the man who heard them as they waded through this complex web of what is coming out when she mouths off at her husband or when he becomes sarcastic or when this one has this problem.

30:13 And when you stand to preach now, all of that is a well within their own spirit by which they see you and through which they relate to you. And hopefully, in your ministry, the whole congregation is enriched. You don't use them as illustrations and embarrass them but your understanding of the human heart and struggles and how the word of God and the grace of God work. It's been enriched.

30:37 You're a better man. And so, it's a delight when this is carried on in the context of the church. And then, as you do, there are these four categories of dismissal. And hopefully, we'll take what we've got here, make a quick break.

Dismissal in Triumph

30:54 The other sheet should be ready and there are two more on that last sheet. First of all is what I call dismissal in triumph. Dismissal in triumph. I can see now what I did.

31:09 I inverted something in getting carried away the second thing under this. But that's all right. In this case, the behavior has been altered and reinforced. And I put down as the paradigm 2 Corinthians 7, 5 to 16.

31:23 In the interest of time, I'll not read it but you remember that's where the apostle says, when Titus came, my heart was refreshed. Why? Because he told me, you took my gospel medicine and it's working. And it's working so effectually that none of us can doubt that the grace of God has been operative.

31:42 There was fundamental resolution leading to joy and thanksgiving on the part of the counselor. In this case, the apostle Paul who gave apostolic counsel and direction for dealing with specific problems in that church. And so, there is the joy that you will have as a pastor when you can dismiss the sheep from this intense pastoral counseling setting into the order life and ministry of the church. And then, I imported this into another part so just look at it there and put it back here where it belongs whenever possible.

Dismissal Due to an Impasse

32:20 Let the person know you may send someone else to him who is struggling with similar problems and their triumph will be an encouragement to the one who has not yet triumphed in that area. But then, there is a dismissal due to an impasse. And here we're back to biblical realism. You may have opened up all the dimensions you can of this problem.

32:41 You've given all the medicine you know the Bible contains. You've given all the practical framework to take the medicine. You've given homework assignments. They're doing the assignments.

32:52 Then it becomes clear there's nothing more you can say. There's no warrant for public exposure to formal discipline. But you've reached an impasse. Well, you don't do.

33:02 Well, you're certainly not going to dismiss them out of your heart, out of your prayers, out of your concern. But you've got a lot of other sheep you've got to attend to. And you say, John, Mary, John and Mary, I know nothing more to tell you. I don't know why we've come to this impasse.

33:22 I'm grieved that we're at the impasse. But reality is we're at the impasse. Now, what could possibly be the cause of that impasse? And on occasions you may want to probe this.

33:33 Well, I've listened, I've listed some of the factors that may produce the impasse. Number one, they may be hiding sin. As far as you know, they've been absolutely open and transparent. But Proverbs 28, 13 says, He who covers his transgressions shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall obtain mercy.

33:54 And this has happened over the course of years where I've gone to a regiment of counseling sessions, came to an impasse, had no idea why, and later on it was very plain why. The individual or individuals were clearly covering sin. And God later either dealt with them that they voluntarily disclosed it or God unmashed them like He did Ananias and Sapphira. We're not God.

34:19 The Lord alone searches the heart and tries the reins. It may be that God has not yet revealed the real issue. And here Philippians 3, 15 has been a great help to me personally and in pastoral counseling. After Paul sets out his single-eyed focused perspective like a runner pressing toward the mark of the upward call of God in Christ, let us therefore as many as are perfect or mature be thus minded and if in anything you are otherwise minded God shall reveal this unto you.

34:56 And that's been my comfort. I said, Lord, something's wrong. I don't know what it is. But I've got a single heart to serve you.

35:07 You're going to reveal it in your time not mine. And for sure we've got a handle on this thing. And you come to an impasse. It may be not that they're covering sin.

35:19 God has not yet by His own sovereign working revealed what the real issue is. And then there are mysteries in the sovereign will of God in terms of His determination to work when and where He will with His own. And I've cited Luke 22, 31, 32. Simon Satan has desired all of you to sift you and leave for you.

35:41 Second person singular. He's desired all of you. Second person plural. But I've prayed for you.

35:49 Not that your courage failed not. If he'd prayed for that Peter never would have denied the Lord. But I've prayed that your faith failed not. Why didn't he pray that his courage failed not?

36:02 We can conjecture but at the end of the day God is God. And He's never going to un-God Himself even when you're in the counseling positions of the will of God and in some cases the problems you're dealing with are the result of God's chastening and all the King's horses and all the King's men can't put Humpty Dumpty together again. If you'd had to enter a series of counseling sessions with David about his fragmented family about his own loss of credibility before the nation there's nothing you could do to undo the things that are cited in 2 Samuel chapter the exact reference is 2 Samuel chapter 12 and it's in the notes that are coming I'll just work through these heads and then we'll see if the notes are there. The texts are listed 2 Samuel 12 and verses 10 through 14 The sword shall never depart from thy house 15 counselors could never bring peace to David's household because you've despised me and taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite I will raise up evil against you in the house I'll take your wives from your eyes give them to your neighbor they shall lie with them in the sight of the sun you did it secretly this was God's chastisement and nobody could undo it and you are going to deal with people who are living with the fruits of divine chastisement who are living with the unchangeable

Dismissal by Referral

37:31 fruits of decisions and choices made in the past and your best ministry is to tell them faith the reality of it and the final warning to others that they don't come to where you are that's the real biblical world and then I've listed in your notes Hebrews 12 5 and following as well and then you will have in your notes a reference to pages 56-59 of competent counsel some very good advice in there from Dr. Adams with regard to this matter of an impasse and what might be the causes of the impasse and then thirdly is the If you want to take notes, fine, but your notes are quite full here. Dismissal by referral. You may come to the conviction you're in over your head. And you lose nothing with two people to say to that sheep, I am in over my head. But I think there might be a brother who's been in the ministry longer than I can help you where you let me make a few phone calls.

38:34 Do I have the liberty to share your problem with a pastor friend of mine? Make sure that in doing good, you don't leave yourself vulnerable to weakening. And no true sheep will ever object to that. But still, show deference and ask their permission and then make the referral.

38:51 You may come to the conviction that it's going to take too much time to work through this problem. And given the stewardships you have, you may have to tell the sheep, look, I believe I could help you. But before God, I can't give the time that's needed. My advice to you is that you go.

39:09 Go to this Christian counseling center where you have confidence they're dealing biblically with someone and you're going to communicate with them simply because you don't have the time.

39:19 You want to be very careful, very guarded. But in the same way that constantly when people in the counseling session bring up something that has to do with career planning and economics, I don't have the knowledge that Pastor Barker does in that area, Mr. Davies. I shunt them off to them.

39:35 Well, you're doing the same thing with some spiritual problems as well. So that's dismissal by referral. And then finally, there is dismissal to a framework of church discipline. Sometimes the issues that come to light have to escalate to church discipline.

Dismissal to Church Discipline

39:51 2 Thessalonians 3, 5-14, 6-14, We command you, brethren, a person has a pattern now that is patently disorderly. It's no longer a matter of a personal struggle. It's known that there's a disorderliness in this particular area of concern. Likewise with Matthew 18.

40:13 It's no longer a private offense. It's been escalated to where admonition has been necessary. And the 1 Corinthians 5 passage we recently dealt with, and I've listed in your notes the section in Morgan Redemption, a very good section on discipline as an adjunct of counseling, pages 286-293. I remember one brother.

40:39 He was indulging. He was indulging in this sin of bulimia, binging and purging. Well, this drove us to do some reading and study on it. And in the course of it, we realized that sometimes bulimics, so violent is their vomiting that they can rupture blood vessels in the throat, can end up choking on their own blood.

41:01 And we said, what would happen if this man choked on his own blood or vomit and died or had to be rescued and it came out in the paper? We said, this is a sin. This would be scandalous sin. And he was not waging all-out warfare.

41:15 We threatened him, the next time you indulge and you're binging and purging, we're going before the church and we're going to label you as a disorderly man, call the church to avoid you and to pray for you. We said it would be scandalous if this happened. And then people said, did you know he had this problem? Oh, yes.

41:35 But we said nothing. And you know God used that threat to flush him out to the place where he's ready, to deal with his bulimics.

41:44 Because he knew in this place that threat was not idle. So when people come along with this gentle, gentle, gentle, every problem can be solved by loving discipleship. Don't believe them. The most loving thing you can do at times is to threaten someone with a means that God has ordained for their salvation.

42:05 And I can no more deny that incident than I can deny my own existence.

42:11 And it's not a threat out of anger. It's a threat out of commitment to do them good. Isn't this what the doctor does? If you don't lose 50 pounds in five years, you're going to have a cardiac arrest.

42:25 Now get that weight off you. Is that a hateful, heavy-handed doctor? That's a loving, faithful physician.

42:35 So brethren, you're going to face it in the days to come. Anytime you do anything that has the semblance of manly vigor in it, it's going to be a threat. It's going to be heavy-handed jeopardy. And you need before God to know your biblical grounds as to what you're doing.